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Tue Nov 05, 2002, 11:55am
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It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important! 
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Tue Nov 05, 2002, 07:28pm
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Joel,
Any of your DD's playing in Humble this weekend? It is still on providing that self -luminous heavenly body keeps on  and  ing. glen BTW, I like the new arrangement the smiles site has.
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glen _______________________________ "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain.
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Tue Nov 05, 2002, 07:56pm
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Hold your ASA caps, Blues!
For all you guys out there in the wet and the cold, I just got back from beautiful Daytona Beach for several days. My husband & I walked on the beach, (water was a little cold but we waded), swam in the heated pool, fished but didn't catch anything, and ate wonderful fresh seafood!! Saturday and Sunday the highs were in the mid 70s, but Monday was 86 degrees and I'm a little sunburned--wow in November, yet! Came back home to low 50s and rain! YUCK!!
Now onto Softball business. It seems the ASA Rules committee is a little chauvinist, with the "men have faster reaction time than women" crap. Bull hockey!!! What about a line drive in fastpitch at 40-43 feet??? Give me a break! A strike that hits the plate in SP is ok? Naw!! The only rule I like is that coed goes to 1 ball, the 12". You know if you've ever called coed what a pain it is to change balls and have spare ones for the fouls, etc. Many years ago, one of our deputy UICs and I came up with a plan for the coed game that our commissioner immediately rejected and wouldn't even refer to OK City. A pitcher's rubber with a hinged compartment on one end that went below ground level to hold a softball. That way the pitcher could change out the ball!! LOL LOL LOL Well, we liked it!! The rest of the rule changes (as usual) are designed to confuse the average Joe and Jane. Maybe I'm glad that I might retire from calling. [Edited by Elaine "Lady Blue" on Nov 5th, 2002 at 06:59 PM]
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Elaine "Lady Blue" Metro Atlanta ASA (retired) Georgia High School NFHS (retired) Mom of former Travel Player National Indicator Fraternity 1995
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 10:14am
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Thanks for relaying this information.
I would like to see the issue of timed games be more specifically addressed. I think there should be some examples (perhaps via casebook) of how the following two rules would be invoked: ASA 5-4-E: A forfeited game shall be declared by the umpire in favor of the team not at fault in the following cases: If a team employs tactics noticeably designed to delay or to hasten the game. What would be some examples of this? ASA 10-1-L: The umpire will not penalize a team for any infraction of a rule when imposing the penalty would be an advantage to the offending team. What would be some examples of this? I also believe there should be a rule that says that time can never expire until the current batter's at-bat has concluded. In other words, there is no amount of stalling that can occur to eliminate the actions of the current batter. The "current batter's" turn at-bat begins the instant the previous batter's turn ends. So, time can not expire *between* batters. There must be ONE MORE batter before time can be considered to have expired. You can't call the game with the count 1-2 on the batter, for example. This simple and easily enforceable provision would eliminate a lot of shenanigans that occur in timed games. David Emerling Memphis, TN
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 12:49pm
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This rule is toothless since the circumstances are so vague that invoke it and the penalty so severe. The only way I have successfully used this rule is as the basis of a warning. I'd like to see as clear a definition as possible of what kind of "tactics" are included in this, and what kind aren't. I have long maintained that otherwise legal tactics (e.g. taking practice swings) can violate this rule if they meet the test of being "noticeably designed do delay." Quote:
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Tom
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 01:08pm
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I've used this a few times and you'll know it when you see it. The problem is that too many umpires don't want to be known at the blue who forfeited a game. The players will not understand and will not get a straight answer from the coach. I can guarantee you that only the coach is going to know the truth and they will make up a story to make the umpire a scapegoat rather than admit s/he or another on the team knowling did something wrong. Been there, done that. I've been accused of this even when the reason for the forfeiture was something else. The most obvious reason you will not see examples of such a thing is because no one wants to set down guidelines which in the long run would be detrimental to the game. When in print, too many time people believe that if it isn't written as a no-no, it must be okay. For example, there is a softball myth that if you don't curse, you can say just about anything you want to an umpire and s/he CANNOT throw you out of the game. I don't know how many times I've heard, "You can't do that, he didn't even curse you!" after ejecting a player for unsportsmanlike conduct.
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 03:37pm
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For example, is it a violation of this rule for a team, with just a couple of minutes left in the game, to bring in a new pitcher have her throw her 5 warmups, and then bring in a second new pitcher, have her throw her 5 warmups, and then bring in a third new pitcher,... until time expires, and then get the final out to win the game? Apparently not, since something like this happend a few years ago at an ASA National Championship Tournament, and intentional delay was not called. If this was legal, what is a violation unless the team does something that in and of itself is illegal? What did the team do that resulted in you declaring a forfeit under this rule? What I would like to see is some specific clock management rules that go into effect in the final x minutes of the game (say, final 10 minutes). These would allow the umpire to have a range of remedies depending on the situation. Mildest remedy would be for the umpire to stop the clock for any time out for conferences or substitutions during the final 10 minutes. While this might compromise the timely completion of the game, once the coaches know the umpires will do this, the only time outs near the end of the game will be legitimate ones, and not ones called just to delay. After all, what the objective should be is to discourage the delaying / hastening tactics while allowing the game to reach the conclusion it would have reached had these tactics not been employed. JMO, of course.
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Tom
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 06:39pm
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One instance when I used it was when the pitcher started throwing bullets against the backstop. I gave him an excessive speed warning. The next pitch was a slow arc, but high enough to easily clear the 12' backstop. I gave the ball out of my bag to the catcher and told him to make sure it didn't happen again. Being one of these smart catchers, he shouted to his pitcher that the blue said don't do it again.
Pitcher laughs and says, "what's he gonna do, forfeit the game?" Then tossed the next pitch higher and much farther. Game was over. Another time was when one team was trying to get the game legal while the other was trying to stall. We were on a field which loses it's light real early in August, and we were going to an "if". I checked with the league president warning him about the problem we were going to face with available light, but he wanted us to try and get it in. Church league championship game and the decided underdog was up by 16 runs in the 3rd and it was getting dark. If the team would just hit a small roller, the defense would let it roll through their legs. We had about 15 minutes of light left when some kid (maybe 16) came to bat. With me less than 6 feet away, this kids older brother tells him to just step on the plate and hit the ball and I would have no choice but to rule him out. Well, I had enough and leaned forward while the batter's brother was still there and told both of them not to do it. The kid looked at his brother who just nodded. As the first pitch was coming, the kid looked down and put his foot in the middle of the plate and swung at a pitch 2 feet over his head, and just tipping it foul. My ruling: I called dead ball and halt the game due to darkness. Well, these good young Christian men went ballistic. A young gentleman who was a Delaware State Trooper came over and got in my face, called me everything he could think of and told my I ruined his dream of winning a championship because he wasn't available on the pre-determined make-up date. The president of the league realized things were getting out of hand and thanked me for putting an end to it. He than had and one of the pastors escorted my partner and myself to the parking lot and stayed with us until we were ready to go. Two different scenarios that could have gone either way and I handled them in two different manners. There are other umpires out there which might have just as successfully handled the same situations in a different manner. Neither one of us would be right or wrong. This is the type of situation that anyone HTBT to understand any action taken. I think the powers that be are trusting the umpire to be intelligent enough to know how to handle situations without giving them guidelines which may point them toward an inevitable result which may have possibly been handled in a different and maybe better manner had he relied on his experience than a book. Damn, that was a long sentence. JMHO,
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 06:46pm
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Most leagues that have timed games allow another inning to begin if there is ANY time remaining of the clock at the conclusion of an inning. So, let's say the home team is at-bat and they're winning. When time expires during their turn at-bat, the game is *immediately* over. The team on defense wants to get this inning over as quick as possible so that they can begin a new inning. So they are rushing. Time could expire at any time, even while a batter is at-bat. The count could be 1-1 and the buzzer could sound. Game over! I'm saying that once a batter begins his turn at-bat ... it should be completed even if time expires while it is in progress. If there's 20 seconds remaining on the clock, the pitcher might as well relax because time can *not* expire until this batter completes his turn at-bat. And if the batter wants to stand in there and take the pitches until time expires ... that's his perogative. That is a more justified ending to the game than a mad panic on the part of the defense to hurry up and pitch in a desperate attempt to get the 3rd out - so a new inning can begin. David Emerling Memphis, TN
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 07:01am
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Why would you expect ASA to address a rule that does not exist?
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 11:15am
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What if the pitcher started throwing pitches way outside, but legal in terms of speed and arc - wouuld you have called anything? In the second case, what if the defense had continued to intentionally misplay in order to extend the inning? Would you have called anything? In other words, I notice that in both cases, you did not invoke the rule until someone did something illegal. Finally, in your second example, the issue was darkness, not the clock. Sure, delay / hastening was still the issue, but clock management was not. My concern stems from timed games, not from other issues such as darkness. Every other sport that uses a clock has special rules governing acceptable behavior, etc., during the final minutes of the game. Since the rules of softball are not designed with a clock in mind, providing end-of-game (from a clock perspective) rules would be especially useful. JMO - never JMHO, though 
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Tom
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 01:28pm
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In the first scenario, the game was on the clock (1 hr/one-pitch tournament). The second scenario BOTH teams were doing their best to prevent the other from obtaining their goal, that is why I called the came on darkness instead of forfeiting the game. Also, I don't see the difference between a clock running out and light running out, by rule they both draw the same conclusion.
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 07:15pm
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Mike,
I'm continuing this discussion not to debate, but to learn when ASA wants this rule applied and under what condidions. I've seen it argued elsewhere that so long as the action is per se legel, then this rule cannot be invoked. I don't agree with that, so that is why I observed that in the 2 examples you gave, illegal actions were being performed. Starting with your last statement, the only reason I made the distinction of clock v darkness was because of my suggestion of having special rules dealing with the final 10 minutes of a timed game. Otherwise, I agree it is the same issue. Let's take your first situation. Suppose the defense decided to intentionally walk every batter. Given the situation, would you invoke the rule? The pitcher made it easier for you by throwing illegal pitches and intentionally disregarding your instructions. Suppose he hadn't done that, but just intentionally walked the batter? And, again, in the game called on account of darkness, what would you have done if one team had been innocent? Suppose the defense just "muffs" every play, never allowing the inning to end, but the other team just continues to play normally? Would you invoke the rule against the defensive team once it became clear they were just stalling? Or what would you have done if you hadn't heard the offensive players talking about getting an intentional out by stepping on the plate? And, finally, what about changing pitchers 3 times in succession, as was (supposedly) done at an ASA JO FP Nationals?
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Tom
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Sat Nov 09, 2002, 10:08am
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Short story. Team A had Team B down by 14 runs going into the bottom of the 5th inning. First pitch was popped up behind the SS only to have him take a few steps toward the pitcher to say something. Next ball was hit to F4 who turn to 2B for the force out. F6 wasn't there, but talking to F5. When he turned to throw to 1B, F3 was watching the game on the other field. Team A was decidedly a superior team, but they wanted to bat again. My partner and I got together and both agreed something was strange. The next ball rolled past F3 and halfway into RF as F10 walked over to the ball. The batter ended up with a triple. At this point, my partner and I told the coach that his team was making a travesty of the game and if they didn't start to play the game properly, it would be forfeited to their opponent and we really didn't care what the score was. Well, much to our surprise, Team B made a comeback and got to within 2 runs by the end of that half inning. We moved to the bottom of the 6th after Team A went scoreless in the top and it started to rain lightly. Team B got a couple of runners on base and you should have heard the whining by Team A that we need to call the game. When the coach called time to confer with me about the weather, I told him lightning would have to strike 2B for me to stop this game. He told me that wasn't right and I reminded him that his team could have been in the comfort of their homes or local pub if they hadn't screwed around earlier. He had a deer-in-the-headlights look on his face when he returned to his position at 1B. Team A ended up winning the complete game by 4 runs as the rain never became a safety factor. Had they continued to play in a manner my partner and I believed was intentionally dragging the game on, it never would have gone past the fifth inning.
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Sat Nov 09, 2002, 11:38am
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Baseball and softball are simply not timable games, so whenever close games and time limits coincide, trouble is sure to follow.
There's no absolute answer as to how to handle it. The defense purposely messes while the offense tries to make outs. If they're slick about it, it's tougher to assert that they're doing it on purpose. Pitcher tries to prolong the inning by throwing a little too far inside. Batter swings anyway and grounds to F5. F5 fields the ball but throws it a little short of F3, who swipes at the ball but misses it. Oops, now we gotta chase the ball down the line. Let's face it, either defense or offense can prolong the game significantly without being obvious, and there's not much we as umpires can do about it. During the ground rules before games with short time limits (girls' fast-pitch bracket play sometimes has an 80-minute deadline), I usually warn the coaches that I will simply add time to the clock if there's any stalling. Of course, darkness is another story.
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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