Offense opens the gate

[NCASAUmp]

I forget if I posted this question already.

ASA ruleset, though other rulesets welcome.

The field is completely enclosed with chain link fencing, and the dugouts have gates with to keep them closed. Teams are (frequently) reminded to keep the gates closed.

So let's say runners on 1B and 2B, no outs. B3 hits a grounder to F6, who throws the ball towards F5. F5 wasn't expecting the throw, and the ball skips past him just as the next on-deck batter (who would be B5) opens the gate to go towards the on-deck circle. The ball ricochets off the opened gate and goes into the dugout.

Your call?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I forget if I posted this question already.

ASA ruleset, though other rulesets welcome.

The field is completely enclosed with chain link fencing, and the dugouts have gates with to keep them closed. Teams are (frequently) reminded to keep the gates closed.

So let's say runners on 1B and 2B, no outs. B3 hits a grounder to F6, who throws the ball towards F5. F5 wasn't expecting the throw, and the ball skips past him just as the next on-deck batter (who would be B5) opens the gate to go towards the on-deck circle. The ball ricochets off the opened gate and goes into the dugout.

Your call?

Treat it just the same as any other thrown ball that goes out of play.

[MD Longhorn]

Unless you are positive the ODB opened the gate specifically to let the ball out, you've gotta simply go by the rules and award bases.

Honestly, I think you'd have a tough sell convincing someone that you WERE positive the ODB opened it on purpose, if you tried to not award bases because of it. But I could see it being sold.

[celebur]

I'm going to be contrary and put the runners back to the bases they had at the time the ball went OOB (or hit the gate before going OOB).

The player that opened the gate is not yet the ODB and had no business opening the gate or being on the field while the ball was live. I am hesitant to reward this act by awarding bases to the runners, so I lean towards no award. . .

. . .but I do stand to be corrected. I fully recognize that this may be one of those situations where my 'gut' reaction is simply not supported by rule.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by celebur

I'm going to be contrary and put the runners back to the bases they had at the time the ball went OOB (or hit the gate before going OOB).

The player that opened the gate is not yet the ODB and had no business opening the gate or being on the field while the ball was live. I am hesitant to reward this act by awarding bases to the runners, so I lean towards no award. . .

. . .but I do stand to be corrected. I fully recognize that this may be one of those situations where my 'gut' reaction is simply not supported by rule.

Fair enough. I can understand the desire not to reward stupidity... but I don't think it matters who opened the gate, even if it was the Team Mom or an asst coach. Without intent, I can see no rules justifying treating this any differently than a simple ball out of play.

Would you award extra bases if it was the DEFENSE unintentionally opening the gate, deflecting the ball in such a way that it stopped the runner's progress?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Fair enough. I can understand the desire not to reward stupidity... but I don't think it matters who opened the gate, even if it was the Team Mom or an asst coach. Without intent, I can see no rules justifying treating this any differently than a simple ball out of play.

Would you award extra bases if it was the DEFENSE unintentionally opening the gate, deflecting the ball in such a way that it stopped the runner's progress?

There are plenty of cases in which the rule book advances runners based off the intentional actions of a fielder. Intentional catch and carry and an overthrown ball are two such examples of advancing the runners at the last possible moment, the first award being given from the time the fielder entered DBT and the second award being given from the time the fielder provided the impetus that propelled the ball out of play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, the National Umpire Staff had to forsight to cover a lot of little things that no one ever thought would happen.

In more recent years, (I assume) it was a given that applying common sense to the rules made these little nuances of the rule book and manual obsolete and removed them. One of these little snippets buried amongst instructions to the umpires was to never enforce a rule if the result benefitted the offender's team.

I have actually seen this occur at a Men's Major Church NC where there was a loose ball and an individual standing at a gate at the end of the dugout behind 1B separated his feet and lifted the top of the gate. The ball went under and the BR was awarded 2B. The dugout was that of the batting team, but other than the other team whining about it, the three-man crew had no evidence it was intentional. We considered it one of the nuances of the field. Many fields have them an you just deal with it.

If I did not play a game every time there was a gap in the fence, an unsecure gate, hole in the backstop, I wouldn't work that many games.

That said, it should be noted in the OP that the ball did not go through the open game, but simple hit it and entered the dugout. The OP doesn't state whether the ball actually entered the opening created by the gate opening or entered the dugout via another means. Let's assume it passed through the subject gate.

There is a can of worms to be opened here. Where do you draw the line? What if a player is turned away and bouncing on the fence while conversing with someone and his "bounce" moved the bottom of the fence enough that a live ball squeeked through? Yeah, TWP, but it could happen since I've seen it happen. Where to you draw the line as to where you may award or not award bases? If you determine the player acted with intention, do you toss the player for UC?

Using 10.1 in this case, I would take the offense's intent (to some extent) and the defense's ability to readily make a play on the ball redirected out of play.