![]() |
|
|
|||
Quote:
HTBT, or an issue of understanding what the writer meant and judged to have happen. There are actually two differing definitions of "booting", so we don't know what the writer actually meant. It can mean actually "kicking", but in sports slang (both football and baseball), it is a synonym to "muffing", or simply failing make the play!! If F5 did add a new impetus, not simply redirect the existing force, then I can agree with you, Mike. But simply changing the direction (where booting is muffing) is deflecting, not a new impetus, and then I would still believe that 8.5-I(2) is the definitive citation, and that 8.5-I(4) and 8.8-F are subsequent and incidental action, and only supportive of clarifying that the runner is not out. We could both be right based on the original post, and HTBT.
__________________
Steve ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF |
|
|||
Quote:
________ Harmed By Wellbutrin Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:32pm. |
|
|||
Quote:
Note that on this play it wasn't a "hard hit ball", it was a "slow roller". That at least opens up the possibility that a runner had advanced a base before the ball was touched. And that means an umpire may have to make a distinction between the two. Last edited by BretMan; Thu Sep 09, 2010 at 01:06pm. |
|
|||
Probably not, but still possible. As such, we have to make sure we're consistent with our terminology and the application of the rules. Otherwise... We're just NSA.
__________________
Dave I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views! Screw green, it ain't easy being blue! I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again. |
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball. |
|
|||
Quote:
__________________
Dave I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views! Screw green, it ain't easy being blue! I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again. |
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
Important side note!! For all those newer to this interaction, I want to make clear that Mike and I are friends and colleagues that enjoy these discussions on a purely academic level. Do not take our discussions as anything more than that. We most often agree, with very similar training; when we disagree, it is to advance the discussion, not to denigrate anything the other has stated.
__________________
Steve ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF |
|
|||
Quote:
The only problem is that there is another circumstance, unstated in the rule, where a batted ball can touch a runner and not be immediately dead- a deflected batted ball. I'm looking at this from three possible angles: 1) Fair batted ball deflects off a fielder with such force that it goes out of play under it's own power: Apply rule 8-5-I(2). Two base award from the time of the pitch. 2) Fair batted ball deflects off a fielder, not hard enough to go out of play under it's own power, then while trying to secure the ball the fielder boots/kicks/bobbles it and that second impetus causes it to go out of play when it would not have otherwise: Apply ASA Rule Clarification from July 2009. Two base award from the time of the boot/kick/bobble (same as if it was a throw that went out of play). 3) Fair batted ball deflects off a fielder, not hard enough to go out of play under it's own power, then the ball makes contact with the runner (not interference or a dead ball) and the contact by the runner provides the impetus to send the ball out of play: Apply rule...??? |
|
|||
Quote:
If y'all remember, I tried to get a portion of this rule changed a couple years ago, but will address this in another thread. Quote:
In this case, just because the ball went off the offense should be irrelevant, unless you want to play dodge ball. I just don't see how the runner can be brought into the case. While in most cases using the deflection off the runner would benefit the offense, I think that is one more situation that umpires would be quite inconsistant in "guessing", "justifying" and applying equally across the board. One of the reasons ASA moved away from the 1 & 1, one award for the IF, another from the OF, etc. to a standard 2 from the time of the release of the throw was to avoid inconsistency. Whether an umpire thinks it is fair or not, enforcing the rule at hand is the only thing that keeps us out of trouble. If the team wants to protest, no problem. That is why the system allows for it and we have a national staff. Quote:
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball. |
|
|||
It seems to me that a fielder kicking the ball and a fielder misplaying (or booting) a ball are two completely different things. I read the rule clarification to include some intent. Throwing is a purposeful action by a fielder. To extend TOT logic to a situation, it would seem to me that whatever the fielder did must also be a purposeful action. I take "kicking" in this clarification to be purposeful.
In the sitch posted, I cannot see the difference between a misplayed deflection and the sitch posted. This is simply a deflection. The runner interacting with the ball is not illegal in this case, and is again a deflection. We simply have a batted fair ball deflected out of play. 2 bases TOP. (PS - not sure why INT was ever discussed at all at the top of this thread. And those stating "I have nothing" missed the fact that you have to have SOMETHING, as the ball has gone out of play!)
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'” West Houston Mike |
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball. |
|
|||
Quote:
________ Wiki Vaporizer Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:32pm. |
|
|||
Well, it would be nice if there was a definition of kicking... but since there is not, I would ask you if a ball striking a fielder in the knee would qualify as fitting into this clarification. I don't think it would. Striking the fielder in the foot should be no different thatn it striking him anywhere else. Again, with the clarification lumping "kicking" in with throwing, I have to assume they intended kicking to be a purposeful act. When you kick a soccer ball or football - you do so on purpose. When a ball happens to strike a foot, it's not a kick. I know - those sports are not softball ... but the logic is sound.
The clarification does not apply in this case, to my mind. 2 bases TOP.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'” West Houston Mike |
|
|||
Quote:
The manner in which the ball left the field of play is relevant, the method used is not. I don't care if it was kicked with a foot, knee, bumped with an elbow, shoulder or hip or headed, if the defense MISPLAYED the ball and provided the impetus which placed it into position to leave playable territory, I'm going with the clarification until told otherwise. As I stated before, not my clarification, but as noted in another thread, you cannot worry about fairness and obviously, it isn't the umpires' rules or clarifications
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball. |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Public Address announcer/ Play by play | Terrapins Fan | Basketball | 34 | Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:20pm |
Force play or time play? | Rita C | Baseball | 44 | Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:12am |
Hi from Iraq | Kelvin green | Basketball | 14 | Fri Jun 06, 2003 05:09pm |
Play-by-Play Commentary | FC IC | Basketball | 2 | Sat Dec 21, 2002 12:28am |
CBS play-by-play announcers: should they all be fired? | David Clausi | Basketball | 6 | Mon Mar 27, 2000 11:56pm |