CR reported but not in game

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by vcblue

The exact opposite of this OP is discuss in the NFHS Case Book. A CR takes the place of the pitcher without it being reported. Unreported sub team warning.

I have a bigger problem that the PU (and less-you) allowed this to happen. Preventative umpiring can stop so many things from happening.

PU: Coach where's that CR you reported.

OR

BU: Time. Hey partner didn't OC just report a CR? PU: Yes. BU: She didn't take the base. PU: Coach where's that CR you reported.

Well, I agree, but don't. Don't know the situation. Could have very well had other things going on besides babysitting the coach's team. Yes, it would be preferable if you actually saw the entry of the player. However, as a PU, your attention could be pulled in another direction.

When a coach comes to umpire with changes, it isn't a "responsibility" of the umpire to stand there and double-check everyone's number who is walking on and off the field. Being alert and observent is good, but I'm not going to gig an umpire for a team's faus pax unless it was so obvious it could not have been missed.

[shipwreck]

I am going to go out on a limb further. If the umpires should never had let this happen, which some are stating, than why even have a section in the rule books, talking about illegal substitutions and the penalties? If we always use preventative umpiring and never let these types of things happen, there should never be a ruling on illegal substitutions. Sometimes on this board it surfaces on what can be construed as umpires coaching the players instead of just umpiring. Some preventative umpiring is OK, but I don't believe we are there to babysit the teams and tell them what they can and cannot do. Dave

[ronald]

Now I remember a play from my last nationals. I was the BU. Pitcher gets a hit and the coach enters a courtesy runner. My partner, the PU, notes it and the cr enters. After a pitch, DC comes out and protests an illegal player. He says the runner they put in as a courtesy runner was a player already in the game. PU comes to me and tells me what has happened. They have no legal sub so we have an out and a disqualification. Why the PU let it happen, I does [sic] not know.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I am going to go out on a limb further. If the umpires should never had let this happen, which some are stating, than why even have a section in the rule books, talking about illegal substitutions and the penalties? If we always use preventative umpiring and never let these types of things happen, there should never be a ruling on illegal substitutions. Sometimes on this board it surfaces on what can be construed as umpires coaching the players instead of just umpiring. Some preventative umpiring is OK, but I don't believe we are there to babysit the teams and tell them what they can and cannot do. Dave

Yet the NCAA philosophy on this, as stated in manual is: "Do not allow accept or allow changes you know are illegal."
They go onto say, "If a coach requests a change that you know is not legal, do not allow it to happen. If, after being told he cannot make a certain change, the coach asks what he can do, tell him-if you understand what he is trying to accomplish."

So here at the one of the higher levels, we are being directed to do just that...babysit the teams in regard to lineup management.

Doesn't make any difference to me, it's their (NCAA) rule set so I do what they tell me they want me to do. I'm always somewhat unsure has to how far I should take this philosophy (if at all) when I'm working under ASA rules.

Where is the proper spot to draw the line between preventive umpiring and "coaching/babysitting" coaches regarding lineup changes working ASA or for that matter NFHS, or any other rule sets many of us work?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Yet the NCAA philosophy on this, as stated in manual is: "Do not allow accept or allow changes you know are illegal."
They go onto say, "If a coach requests a change that you know is not legal, do not allow it to happen. If, after being told he cannot make a certain change, the coach asks what he can do, tell him-if you understand what he is trying to accomplish."

So here at the one of the higher levels, we are being directed to do just that...babysit the teams in regard to lineup management.

Doesn't make any difference to me, it's their (NCAA) rule set so I do what they tell me they want me to do. I'm always somewhat unsure has to how far I should take this philosophy (if at all) when I'm working under ASA rules.

Where is the proper spot to draw the line between preventive umpiring and "coaching/babysitting" coaches regarding lineup changes working ASA or for that matter NFHS, or any other rule sets many of us work?

Personally, I have always used that philosophy, in every level; that it is always our responsibility to refuse to accept an illegal substutution when it is initially presented. That isn't coaching or babysitting; it is preventative officiating, and a reasonable expectation of any coach that you wouldn't accept any obvious rules violation.

But, that's just my opinion. And I do see the possibility that the PU was involved with something that took his attention; as I pointed out, a huddle of players could excuse that.

But (and I don't really know exactly how this happened), I am picturing an OC coming out and saying "Time! Blue, I have a courtesy runner, number 12 for my pitcher"; and the PU looking at his lineup, seeing it is legitimate, recording that, announcing it to the scorekeeper and the other team. And no one notices that number 12 doesn't exchange positions with the pitcher?? If that is the case, it just shouldn't happen.

Am I checking the numbers on the jerseys as they pass?? Hell no. But I am making sure they pass in that situation.

[vcblue]

At the 18A USA National UIC Jim Craig said, "At any level, any tournament, any game we use preventative umpiring. There is no line to draw".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Yet the NCAA philosophy on this, as stated in manual is: "Do not allow accept or allow changes you know are illegal."
They go onto say, "If a coach requests a change that you know is not legal, do not allow it to happen. If, after being told he cannot make a certain change, the coach asks what he can do, tell him-if you understand what he is trying to accomplish."

So here at the one of the higher levels, we are being directed to do just that...babysit the teams in regard to lineup management.

Doesn't make any difference to me, it's their (NCAA) rule set so I do what they tell me they want me to do. I'm always somewhat unsure has to how far I should take this philosophy (if at all) when I'm working under ASA rules.

Where is the proper spot to draw the line between preventive umpiring and "coaching/babysitting" coaches regarding lineup changes working ASA or for that matter NFHS, or any other rule sets many of us work?

No, that is not the same thing as this thread supposes.

Yes, you don't allow a change that was not legal, but as concerned in a thread or two ago, this thread has just taken a left turn to a completely different scenario.

If your answer to everything is "preventive umpiring" then I expect each umpire to take one change at a time, observe that change physically occur including watching the replaced player enter the dugout and then turn to the coach and ask if there is anything else you can do for him/her.

Absurd? Absolutely, just as it is to dress down an umpire because a coach offered an umpire a valid and legal change and his player failed to execute it.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Absolutely, just as it is to dress down an umpire because a coach offered an umpire a valid and legal change and his player failed to execute it.

Mike, if that is how you read my earliest response, then either I wasn't clear, or you misunderstood. Not a dressing down in my mind, but a statement that it really shouldn't happen unders normal circumstances.

Shipwreck Dave, if you took me that way, too, as dressing you down, then I apologize; not my intention.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Mike, if that is how you read my earliest response, then either I wasn't clear, or you misunderstood. Not a dressing down in my mind, but a statement that it really shouldn't happen unders normal circumstances.

Shipwreck Dave, if you took me that way, too, as dressing you down, then I apologize; not my intention.

Wasn't referring to you, Steve.

Was this screwed up? Yes, but **** happens and we can discuss, but I'm not pointing at the umpire for not catching something that is standard and valid change.

[KJUmp]

And no intent at all here to dress down Shipwreck either.
I could easily see the same thing happening in one of my games, as such I learned something from reading his OP, and had my own thoughts on proper preventative umpiring solidified.