CR reported but not in game

[shipwreck]

Had a game yesterday and this happened. I was BU. Coach reported to PU and he announced that CR would come in and run for pitcher. After an out was recorded, the OC discovered that the CR had not taken the pitchers position on first base. Isn't the PU lineup the official line-up? It showed the CR should be on first but wasn't. I was thinking that since CR was the one that should be there and pitcher couldn't replace CR on base, this should maybe be treated as an illegal substitution even though an illegal substitution hadn't taken place. If this was an illegal substitution, the offended team could notify the PU or an umpire without the offended team notifying him could rule on it. What do you think? Dave

[ronald]

use rule 10
rule 10 to go with illegal player and add an d to rule 4 6 F 3

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by ronald

use rule 10
rule 10 to go with illegal player and add an d to rule 4 6 F 3

Sorry I forgot to say NFHS rules.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Sorry I forgot to say NFHS rules.

If the offended team did not protest it.........

[ronald]

In NFHS, this sit would fall under the illegal sub rules "as in 3-4" (73, 2009).

Per rule 3-4, it does not matter who discovers it, including Mr. Umpire, and the penalty is restriction and and out.

[shipwreck]

If in fact it is a rule violation, it would be an illegal substitution and wouldn't need to be protested by the offending team. In my head I am thinking that's what it is but it kind of seems goofy. Dave

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

In NFHS, this sit would fall under the illegal sub rules "as in 3-4" (73, 2009).

Per rule 3-4, it does not matter who discovers it, including Mr. Umpire, and the penalty is restriction and and out.

Restriction of whom?

[KJUmp]

Not to hijack the thread which deals with the correct ruling under NFHS; would like to ask about the correct ruling under ASA.

Under ASA 8-10..am I correct here in applying the EFFECT for a violation of 8.10.G; when it's brought to my attention by the DC/offended team?

Is the player who gets disqualified under 8.10.G (if that is the correct rule application) the CR who did not go out and take her proper place on base, OR is it the the runner she was suppose be a CR for?

Also am I correct on the following:

1) No penalty applied if brought to my attention by the OC?

2)Does the completion of the time at bat have any bearing on the ruling?

Set me straight on anything I missing or screwing up here under ASA.
Thnx

[vcblue]

The exact opposite of this OP is discuss in the NFHS Case Book. A CR takes the place of the pitcher without it being reported. Unreported sub team warning.

I have a bigger problem that the PU (and less-you) allowed this to happen. Preventative umpiring can stop so many things from happening.

PU: Coach where's that CR you reported.

OR

BU: Time. Hey partner didn't OC just report a CR? PU: Yes. BU: She didn't take the base. PU: Coach where's that CR you reported.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Restriction of whom?

i think i will go with the pitcher.

While she and the cr never completed, in the physical sense, any part of the language of the rule being replaced or entering, the pitcher is out there and she is not suppose to be there. What are you going to do? Go to rule 10?

But if we interpret replaced or entered as being accomplished by the mere informing of the ump and announcement of the sub and then when we see that somebody else is there who is not suppose to be there, we have a violation. NFHS deems this occurance an illegal substitution. In our case, the pitcher is illegal and has to go. If no other pitcher, then kill your partner for his or her boneheaded mistake.


i think we will have a new rule for the rule books. seems like a no brainer. has to be added as language does not really cover this sit adequately. of course, they will say do not let it happen but we already knew that.

[AtlUmpSteve]

When a substitute is reported, s/he is officially in the game once the PU accepts the change. That means the legal player on base is the CR. In ASA, there is an EFFECT that failing to report as a CR results in disqualification of the CR; but no such note in NFHS.

Since the legal person on base is the CR, and the pitcher may not reenter to run (unless CR is required as the only available substitute for an injury or disqualification, or the CR herself is injured or disqualified), I would submit that the illegal substitute is the pitcher.

As others have stated, preventative officiating (and working together as a team) should keep this from happening. I could only excuse this if there was also a conference during this stoppage, and when the multiple players broke from the huddle, THEN it wasn't noticed that the CR didn't enter. (Another good argument for the NCAA disallowing the gratuitous huddles as freebie conferences without a charged conference.)

[shipwreck]

I will take some of the blame for this one. I was working with a new partner which still doesn't excuse me. I guess I got lazy and didn't pay attention to what had transpired. Not trying to get off the hook, but I have never had this happen before and just assumed the CR coming in would happen. I know as a PU, I always make sure what has been reported to me, happens. This will keep me on my toes for next time. BTW, has this ever happened to any of you, but you stopped it before it did? Dave

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by vcblue

The exact opposite of this OP is discuss in the NFHS Case Book. A CR takes the place of the pitcher without it being reported. Unreported sub team warning.

I have a bigger problem that the PU (and less-you) allowed this to happen. Preventative umpiring can stop so many things from happening.

PU: Coach where's that CR you reported.

OR

BU: Time. Hey partner didn't OC just report a CR? PU: Yes. BU: She didn't take the base. PU: Coach where's that CR you reported.

Well, I agree, but don't. Don't know the situation. Could have very well had other things going on besides babysitting the coach's team. Yes, it would be preferable if you actually saw the entry of the player. However, as a PU, your attention could be pulled in another direction.

When a coach comes to umpire with changes, it isn't a "responsibility" of the umpire to stand there and double-check everyone's number who is walking on and off the field. Being alert and observent is good, but I'm not going to gig an umpire for a team's faus pax unless it was so obvious it could not have been missed.

[shipwreck]

I am going to go out on a limb further. If the umpires should never had let this happen, which some are stating, than why even have a section in the rule books, talking about illegal substitutions and the penalties? If we always use preventative umpiring and never let these types of things happen, there should never be a ruling on illegal substitutions. Sometimes on this board it surfaces on what can be construed as umpires coaching the players instead of just umpiring. Some preventative umpiring is OK, but I don't believe we are there to babysit the teams and tell them what they can and cannot do. Dave

[ronald]

Now I remember a play from my last nationals. I was the BU. Pitcher gets a hit and the coach enters a courtesy runner. My partner, the PU, notes it and the cr enters. After a pitch, DC comes out and protests an illegal player. He says the runner they put in as a courtesy runner was a player already in the game. PU comes to me and tells me what has happened. They have no legal sub so we have an out and a disqualification. Why the PU let it happen, I does [sic] not know.