Overthrown vs lose possession

[WestMichiganBlue]

ASA 8.5.G (but applicable to other rule sets) - overthrown ball that goes out of play.

Does "overthrown" mean a thrown ball that is way wide of the fielder that goes out of play? Or can it be a thrown ball that the fielder fails to cleanly field?

8.5.G1 is an exception for when a fielder loses possession of the thrown ball. What does "loses possession" mean?

Sit: 14U semi-final game: attempted pick off at 1B. F2's throw is in the dirt and gets past F3. R9, backing up the play, bobbles the ball and it goes in to DBT.

If this is an overthown ball, then award is 2 bases from TOT and R1 goes to 3B.

If this is loss of possession, then award is 1 base from time ball enters DBT, and R1 goes to 2B.

What is your call?

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichiganBlue

ASA 8.5.G (but applicable to other rule sets) - overthrown ball that goes out of play.

Does "overthrown" mean a thrown ball that is way wide of the fielder that goes out of play? Or can it be a thrown ball that the fielder fails to cleanly field?

You must really be bored since the definition of "overthrow" is clearly noted in Rule 1

8.5.G1 is an exception for when a fielder loses possession of the thrown ball. What does "loses possession" mean?

REALLY bored!

Sit: 14U semi-final game: attempted pick off at 1B. F2's throw is in the dirt and gets past F3. R9, backing up the play, bobbles the ball and it goes in to DBT.

If this is an overthown ball, then award is 2 bases from TOT and R1 goes to 3B.

If this is loss of possession, then award is 1 base from time ball enters DBT, and R1 goes to 2B.

What is your call?

WMB

REALLY, REALLY bored!!!!

Is a throw a throw any longer if a fiedler gains possession of the ball? Can a fielder lose possession of a ball s/he has never possessed?

The cited Exception is also covered in RS#38 and specifies the fielder losing possession on an attempted tag. TO ME, that seems like an obvious conclusion where an exception would be necessary as I can see/hear all the conspiracy folks insisting "but the player was throwing the ball from their glove" and wanting 2 bases awarded..

BTW, what is R9 doing handling the ball in any manner?

To answer the question, the umpire would have to judge if any defender ever gained control of the thrown ball. Obviously, F3 did not. If the ball that was bobbled by F9 entered DBT through no additional impetus from the player, the award is 2 bases from the TOT. If it was F9's clumsy handling of the ball that provided the impetus for the ball to leave the field of play or did gain possession and loss the ball on an attempt to throw it, then it is 2 bases from the time F9 lost contact with the ball.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...BTW, what is R9 doing handling the ball in any manner?...

Hmmm... so, Mike, how can there even BE an R9?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Hmmm... so, Mike, how can there even BE an R9?

Continual format, R9 is the ninth offensive player to bat in the inning

[PSUchem]

Surprisingly, we had an interesting one this weekend that fits in this thread. It wasn't my game and I didn't see the situation, but the jist was this:

Throw made to 3B for an attempted tag out. Ball gets past F5, and another fielder (F1? F7?), who is backing up the play fields the errant throw. While in the process of transferring the ball into the throwing hand, the ball slips from her throwing hand on the "backswing" of her throw and sails behind her over the fence.

Do you have a thrown ball out of play, or a loss of possession?

[AtlUmpSteve]

If you judge she intended for the ball to go out of play, it is a thrown ball. If you judge it was accidental, it is loss of possession.

[greymule]

I would say that if the ball slips from her throwing hand, it's a throw.

I think that "loss of possession" was intended for plays like the one I had a few years ago: R1 on 2B, B2 hits a ground ball to F6, who tries to slap a tag on R1 as he runs by. The glove hits R1's knee, the ball flies out and bounds across the 3B foul line and out of play. One base from the time the ball entered DBT.

Or, R1 gets trapped in a rundown between 1B and 2B. As R1 returns to 1B, the throw goes to F3, who drops the ball. As R1 slides back into 1B, he knocks the ball into the dugout. R1 gets 2B only.

I just can't see a ball going from the hand to DBT, without some other impetus, as anything other than a throw.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

Surprisingly, we had an interesting one this weekend that fits in this thread. It wasn't my game and I didn't see the situation, but the jist was this:

Throw made to 3B for an attempted tag out. Ball gets past F5, and another fielder (F1? F7?), who is backing up the play fields the errant throw. While in the process of transferring the ball into the throwing hand, the ball slips from her throwing hand on the "backswing" of her throw and sails behind her over the fence.

Do you have a thrown ball out of play, or a loss of possession?

Ball, out of the glove and into the throwing hand, for the purpose of the rule and awards, I would say the effect is the same as a throw.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by greymule

I would say that if the ball slips from her throwing hand, it's a throw.

I think that "loss of possession" was intended for plays like the one I had a few years ago: R1 on 2B, B2 hits a ground ball to F6, who tries to slap a tag on R1 as he runs by. The glove hits R1's knee, the ball flies out and bounds across the 3B foul line and out of play. One base from the time the ball entered DBT.

Or, R1 gets trapped in a rundown between 1B and 2B. As R1 returns to 1B, the throw goes to F3, who drops the ball. As R1 slides back into 1B, he knocks the ball into the dugout. R1 gets 2B only.

I just can't see a ball going from the hand to DBT, without some other impetus, as anything other than a throw.

I agree, greymule, that these are the more "common" plays that one thinks of when using the loss of possession rule.

On the field, for this situation the thrown ball out of play rule was applied, but after discussion later with our UIC, it was determined this should have been a loss of possession. I'm imagining football rules now. If the ball is knocked loose on the backswing it's a fumble (loss of possession), if on the forward motion, a throw.

[greymule]

I understand the football analogy, but it doesn't apply in baseball or softball. If the fielder directs the ball out of play, even accidentally, it's an overthrow. In your example, you guys had it right the first time.

I hope your UIC didn't rely on football interpretation to arrive at his softball decision.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by greymule

I understand the football analogy, but it doesn't apply in baseball or softball. If the fielder directs the ball out of play, even accidentally, it's an overthrow. In your example, you guys had it right the first time.

I hope your UIC didn't rely on football interpretation to arrive at his softball decision.

He didn't use the football analogy, but based on his interpretation that this was a loss of possession, I likened it to football. I think his point was that it was not thrown, because the ball slipped from the hand in a backward direction, and therefore it should not be treated like a throw.