Two questions from this weekend's tournament

[SamG]

I'm helping coach my DD's team and would like clarification on two situations (want to make sure I was given correct information). Not that it matters, but NSA fastpitch rules.

1) My team is batting. Batter starts to swing at a pitch then stops. PU calls 'strike'. I did not think her wrists "broke" (is that still the deciding factor)? I ask for an appeal from the BU who agrees the batter swung. OK, fine. After the inning as I'm walking back to the dugout, PU tells me once he called "strike", you can't appeal the call. Is that correct?

2)While watching the game before ours, one of the pitchers' motion looked "strange". If you can picture watching from third base side... pitcher takes the mound, puts hands together, keeps hands together and pulls ball down to about 7 o'clock (just past right hip), then moves (CCW as viewed from 3rd) ball & glove up to 12 o'clock. At that point, she separates the hands, brings the ball CW back to ~ 8 o'clock, then goes CCW through the full windmill before releasing the pitch. I couldn't find the line in the rule set, but I thought there was something about only allowed to pass the hip once. UIC looked at the motion and said it was legal, so fine. Is my memory faulty (very possibly)?

Thanks

[MD Longhorn]

1) Correct... although why in the world did BU respond to an appeal. PU didn't actually ask him, did he? A strike is a strike. A ball call on a check swing can be appealed, but it's PU that makes the appeal. coach and catcher only request it.
2) I don't hear anything illegal here.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

1) Correct... although why in the world did BU respond to an appeal. PU didn't actually ask him, did he? A strike is a strike. A ball call on a check swing can be appealed, but it's PU that makes the appeal. coach and catcher only request it.

Did not know that (that you can appeal the ball call but not the strike call). Seems counter-intuitive, but OK.

2) I don't hear anything illegal here.

OK.

Thanks

[argodad]

Cool. A tournament report in which the umpires were 100% correct!

[BlitzkriegBob]

1) As stated above, correct that an offer on a check swing can not be appealed. The PU will not call it a swinging strike unless he is 100% sure that there was a swing, and if he's 100% sure, then why would he need to ask his partner? To the best of my knowledge, "breaking" the wrists has never been the determining factor for an offer at a pitch. That's just a myth.

2) NSA Rule 6-6-d states "There is no more than one revolution of the arm in the windmill pitch. The pitching arm may be dropped to the side and to the rear before starting the windmill motion. The ball does not have to be released the first time past the hip."

[JefferMC]

In constrast, I was asked about a pitcher in a recent tournament.

The pitcher pauses (takes the signal) with her hands against her chest. Her windup starts with the pitching hand coming up out of the glove to above her shoulder and back around to the convential release, basically shaving at least 90 degrees of rotation off of most of her peers.

A little unusual, may get inside a batters head the first time she watches her, but nothing illegal that I could find.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

In contrast, I was asked about a pitcher in a recent tournament.

The pitcher pauses (takes the signal) with her hands against her chest. Her windup starts with the pitching hand coming up out of the glove to above her shoulder and back around to the conventional release, basically shaving at least 90 degrees of rotation off of most of her peers.

A little unusual, may get inside a batters head the first time she watches her, but nothing illegal that I could find.

Does she take the signals with the hands separated before bringing them together?

[SamG]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

1) As stated above, correct that an offer on a check swing can not be appealed. The PU will not call it a swinging strike unless he is 100% sure that there was a swing, and if he's 100% sure, then why would he need to ask his partner? To the best of my knowledge, "breaking" the wrists has never been the determining factor for an offer at a pitch. That's just a myth.

Then what determines whether someone "checked" in time? Judgement call by the PU?

2) NSA Rule 6-6-d states "There is no more than one revolution of the arm in the windmill pitch. The pitching arm may be dropped to the side and to the rear before starting the windmill motion. The ball does not have to be released the first time past the hip."

I read that line as the hands come to the side and rear (CW), then fully around CCW to release. The pitcher I was referring to went to the side and rear (hands together), then past the hip and above her head (hands still together), back to the side and rear (CW), then to full windmill. So she passed her hip twice CW and three times CCW. To try to explain further... assume hands at the waist are at 5 on a clock (6 is the hip). Rotate the clock arms CW to 7, then CCW to 12, then CW to 7, then CCW (making a full rotation) to 5 for the release.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by SamG

Then what determines whether someone "checked" in time? Judgement call by the PU?

There are several things to look for, but yes, basically a judgement call by the umpire.

Originally Posted by SamG

I read that line as the hands come to the side and rear (CW), then fully around CCW to release. The pitcher I was referring to went to the side and rear (hands together), then past the hip and above her head (hands still together), back to the side and rear (CW), then to full windmill. So she passed her hip twice CW and three times CCW. To try to explain further... assume hands at the waist are at 5 on a clock (6 is the hip). Rotate the clock arms CW to 7, then CCW to 12, then CW to 7, then CCW (making a full rotation) to 5 for the release.

In my mind (and I think this is supported by the book), it doesn't matter what the hands and ball do as long as they're together. Once they separate, then the "clock is on" as to how many rotations the ball (and the arm holding it) can make.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Does she take the signals with the hands separated before bringing them together?

Sorry, yes. She takes signals, brings the hands together, pauses, then goes into the (abbreviated) windup.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SamG

Then what determines whether someone "checked" in time? Judgement call by the PU?

Or the BU. Yes.

Originally Posted by SamG

I read that line as the hands come to the side and rear (CW), then fully around CCW to release. The pitcher I was referring to went to the side and rear (hands together), then past the hip and above her head (hands still together), back to the side and rear (CW), then to full windmill. So she passed her hip twice CW and three times CCW. To try to explain further... assume hands at the waist are at 5 on a clock (6 is the hip). Rotate the clock arms CW to 7, then CCW to 12, then CW to 7, then CCW (making a full rotation) to 5 for the release.

Until her hands separate, nothing is happening. The pitch starts when the hands separate. What you describe here is legal.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Until her hands separate, nothing is happening. The pitch starts when the hands separate. What you describe here is legal.

ahhh, thank you (and Jeffer). Now I REALLY understand.

[darkside]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

In constrast, I was asked about a pitcher in a recent tournament.

The pitcher pauses (takes the signal) with her hands against her chest. Her windup starts with the pitching hand coming up out of the glove to above her shoulder and back around to the convential release, basically shaving at least 90 degrees of rotation off of most of her peers.

A little unusual, may get inside a batters head the first time she watches her, but nothing illegal that I could find.

We have several pitchers around here that do this. When their hands come together, they bring them up to their chest (hands close to the body), then down in front of their hips, hands still together or now pushed out from the body to fully extended about shoulder height when they start to separate. Pitching continues up over the top and ball is released. Very simple and no rock back. North Carolina pitcher Danielle Spaulding pitches this way.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by darkside

We have several pitchers around here that do this. When their hands come together, they bring them up to their chest (hands close to the body), then down in front of their hips, hands still together or now pushed out from the body to fully extended about shoulder height when they start to separate. Pitching continues up over the top and ball is released. Very simple and no rock back. North Carolina pitcher Danielle Spaulding pitches this way.

The way I picture what you're saying: they drop their hands, together, in front of their body, then bring them up together arms extended, with the ball hand finally leaving the glove about half-way up. A large number of girls here do this in front, or to the pitching arm side. This girl is unique in that she comes to rest with the ball above the belt, and never lowers it from there.