ASA Post July Rules Clarifications

[IRISHMAFIA]

ASA posted some new rule clarifications.

Amateur Softball Association of America (ASA)

There is also an emergency rule change that takes the height of the arc back to 12' for Senior Softball ONLY.

[Snocatzdad]

Rule 8 Section 5F
Runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out:
Play: With no outs, R1 on 1B and B2 hits a long fly ball to F8. R1 rounds 2B, sees the ball caught by F8 and begins to return to 1B. The ball is released while R1 is between 2B and 3B. The ball goes out of play while the R1 is between 1B and 2B. What is he correct award for the umpire to apply?
Ruling: Once the ball enters dead ball territory the umpire should first allow the runner to complete their base running responsibilities. The umpire should hesitate to see if the runner is going to retouch 1B. Then the umpire should call dead ball and award two bases from the time of the release of the ball, not the time the ball goes out of play. This means that even though the runner was going back to tag up, the release of the ball happened when the runner was between 2B and 3B. Therefore, the runner would be awarded two (2) bases from the time of the throw. Rule 8 Section 5G

This seems off to me. IMO it should be a 2 base award from the last base safely reached at the time of the release. Since the runner has to go back and tag up, then the last base safely reached was 1B and award should be 3B.

You can award home if they don't go back and tag up, but the defensive should be able to appeal then and get the out. I guess that is the crux, you have to award home because it's not the umpires job to let the defense know that the runner has to tag up to be safe from an appeal. (still stinks)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

This seems off to me. IMO it should be a 2 base award from the last base safely reached at the time of the release. Since the runner has to go back and tag up, then the last base safely reached was 1B and award should be 3B.

You can award home if they don't go back and tag up, but the defensive should be able to appeal then and get the out. I guess that is the crux, you have to award home because it's not the umpires job to let the defense know that the runner has to tag up to be safe from an appeal. (still stinks)

Given there is no out at 1st for not tagging, isn't the last base safely reached actually 2nd?

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

Rule 8 Section 5F
Runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out:
Play: With no outs, R1 on 1B and B2 hits a long fly ball to F8. R1 rounds 2B, sees the ball caught by F8 and begins to return to 1B. The ball is released while R1 is between 2B and 3B. The ball goes out of play while the R1 is between 1B and 2B. What is he correct award for the umpire to apply?
Ruling: Once the ball enters dead ball territory the umpire should first allow the runner to complete their base running responsibilities. The umpire should hesitate to see if the runner is going to retouch 1B. Then the umpire should call dead ball and award two bases from the time of the release of the ball, not the time the ball goes out of play. This means that even though the runner was going back to tag up, the release of the ball happened when the runner was between 2B and 3B. Therefore, the runner would be awarded two (2) bases from the time of the throw. Rule 8 Section 5G

question(s) in bold:
On the 'hesitation', how long are we talking about?

The runner still has an obligation to run the bases 'correctly', but after declaring a dead ball, what is the timing or how soon can the defense appeal had the runner not returned to first.

How long does the runner have to 'properly' run the bases (in this case return to first for the tag up)

This has always been a bit confusing to me when it comes to a dead ball and appeals after the fact.

TIA

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

...This seems off to me. IMO it should be a 2 base award from the last base safely reached at the time of the release. Since the runner has to go back and tag up, then the last base safely reached was 1B and award should be 3B. ...

The rule merely states that "The award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the ball left the fielder’s hand." It says nothing about base reached, safely or otherwise. Besides, unless or until the appeal is properly made, the runner is considered to have safely reached 2B.

PS: Anyone know why this play has the heading "Rule 8 Section 5F" when the pertinent rule is Rule 8 Section 5G?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Snocatzdad

This seems off to me. IMO it should be a 2 base award from the last base safely reached at the time of the release. Since the runner has to go back and tag up, then the last base safely reached was 1B and award should be 3B.

You can award home if they don't go back and tag up, but the defensive should be able to appeal then and get the out. I guess that is the crux, you have to award home because it's not the umpires job to let the defense know that the runner has to tag up to be safe from an appeal. (still stinks)

There is nothing, NOTHING new here. This has been the rule for years.

And even though the rule has NOTHING to do with touching a base, by rule, the last base touched safely IS the last base the runner passed. (8.3.B)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

question(s) in bold:
On the 'hesitation', how long are we talking about?

The runner still has an obligation to run the bases 'correctly', but after declaring a dead ball, what is the timing or how soon can the defense appeal had the runner not returned to first.

How long does the runner have to 'properly' run the bases (in this case return to first for the tag up)

This has always been a bit confusing to me when it comes to a dead ball and appeals after the fact.

TIA

How long do you think it is? That is your answer.

As an umpire, this really shouldn't be new for you. If observant, you should be able to tell if the runner is going to return or is satisfied where they are. Personally, I simply watch the runner's reaction and listen for a coach's instructions. If the runner is still moving, I wait for them to complete their running tasks. If there is no indication the runner is going to return by the time I've scanned the situation, I'm announcing my ruling.

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How long do you think it is? That is your answer.

As an umpire, this really shouldn't be new for you. If observant, you should be able to tell if the runner is going to return or is satisfied where they are. Personally, I simply watch the runner's reaction and listen for a coach's instructions. If the runner is still moving, I wait for them to complete their running tasks. If there is no indication the runner is going to return by the time I've scanned the situation, I'm announcing my ruling.

that works for me

[MD Longhorn]

I think it was my first year when one of these was taken to the extreme of the extremes. 8U (of course). Runner is at about shortstop when it's caught - everyone's yelling BACK, so she goes to 2nd. Ball goes out of play -and partner awards home. Runner runs about 3 steps toward third then STRAIGHT toward home. Coach gets her attention after she's passed the mound and tells her she has to go to first, which she does, directly... and then she heads home again. Coach tells her to "come here", tells her to touch third, then 2nd, then 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd, and then home. This probably took 3-4 minutes.

Other coach goes nuts - luckily, my partner was very experienced and I got my first listen to the concept of "last time by", although he didn't use the words. After talking about this one in the changing room between games with the guys on the other field, I think we had 4 different opinions ... until I, the rookie, said, "Doesn't this all not matter at all - coach came out and yelled, but I don't recall an appeal anywhere."

This one came up at every clinic thereafter ... and honestly, I think we've gotten a different "official" ruling every year regarding what the umpires should have done if there was a real appeal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think it was my first year when one of these was taken to the extreme of the extremes. 8U (of course). Runner is at about shortstop when it's caught - everyone's yelling BACK, so she goes to 2nd. Ball goes out of play -and partner awards home. Runner runs about 3 steps toward third then STRAIGHT toward home. Coach gets her attention after she's passed the mound and tells her she has to go to first, which she does, directly... and then she heads home again. Coach tells her to "come here", tells her to touch third, then 2nd, then 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd, and then home. This probably took 3-4 minutes.

Other coach goes nuts - luckily, my partner was very experienced and I got my first listen to the concept of "last time by", although he didn't use the words. After talking about this one in the changing room between games with the guys on the other field, I think we had 4 different opinions ... until I, the rookie, said, "Doesn't this all not matter at all - coach came out and yelled, but I don't recall an appeal anywhere."

This one came up at every clinic thereafter ... and honestly, I think we've gotten a different "official" ruling every year regarding what the umpires should have done if there was a real appeal.

Well, once she touched home or 3B, returning to touch a missed base or base left too soon is no longer an available option. Of course, there would still have to be an appeal. Then again, 8U don't need umpires.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think it was my first year when one of these was taken to the extreme of the extremes. 8U (of course). Runner is at about shortstop when it's caught - everyone's yelling BACK, so she goes to 2nd. Ball goes out of play -and partner awards home. Runner runs about 3 steps toward third then STRAIGHT toward home. Coach gets her attention after she's passed the mound and tells her she has to go to first, which she does, directly... and then she heads home again. Coach tells her to "come here", tells her to touch third, then 2nd, then 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd, and then home. This probably took 3-4 minutes.

Other coach goes nuts - luckily, my partner was very experienced and I got my first listen to the concept of "last time by", although he didn't use the words. After talking about this one in the changing room between games with the guys on the other field, I think we had 4 different opinions ... until I, the rookie, said, "Doesn't this all not matter at all - coach came out and yelled, but I don't recall an appeal anywhere."

This one came up at every clinic thereafter ... and honestly, I think we've gotten a different "official" ruling every year regarding what the umpires should have done if there was a real appeal.

As soon as I read the first sentence, I knew Mike's last sentence was coming.
Anyway, why would the coach have her touch 3rd, or for that matter 2nd again as she had just lef 2nd and could just take a confused route back to 1st?

[MD Longhorn]

Good qu4stions. And all came up at some point afterward. I think the consensus was that when she passed the mound on the way home (which is the only base she didn't touch in the wrong order), she had "passed 3rd" (gross miss to say the least) - and needed to retouch third on her way back to 2nd. Granted that this is a mess.