Pitch in circle, raises throwing hand with ball, LBR?

[yscleo]

Thanks for all the response to the thread on runner on 3rd and B/R walks to run toward 2B.

As a follow up question on the pitcher LBR. We had games yesterday. In this exact situation, 1 out, with runner on 3rd, our B/R got a walk and I directed the B/R to run toward 2B. The pitcher that had the ball, in the pitcher's circle, took the ball out of the glove, raises his hand high up (elbow above shoulder) wanting to throw. The runner at 3rd took several steps off. The other team yells to the pitcher watch 3rd, so the pitcher turns to look at 3rd, throwing hand with ball up and was confused. He turned to look at the runner toward 2B, then immediately turns back to look at the runner that is still a few steps off 3rd that had stopped.

The field ump called time and the runner out at 3rd, for lead off. Funny thing is, the B/R that was running toward 2B, did also stop while the pitcher was looking at where to throw. (Yes the B/R didn't go all the way to 2B.) This B/R did return to 1B when the runner at 3rd was called out. The ump didn't call this B/R out for lead off.

We commented afterwards to the ump that we got different calls from other umps before. The ump got upset and said he gives umpire clinics, and the other umps must have not be keeping up with the new rules that's been there for a few years. He said as long as there is no throwing motions, the play is not live, even the pitcher holds the ball with throwing hand up.

This is Ontario OASA, so we follow ASA rules. So I guess I'll need to buy the new ASA rulebook.

But last year we were told something different. Ump told us if the pitch hold the hand up, the play becomes live even if he didn't throw the ball. This is going to be a rule we'll need to ask the umps, at the beginning of each game, to know what their understanding is.

[RKBUmp]

Rule supplement 34-J. While in the circle and in possession of the ball, any act by the pitcher that, in the umpires judgement, causes the runner to react is considered a play.

The pitcher doesnt even need to raise her hand, if she turns sharply toward the runner, makes an agressive step toward them etc and the runner reacts, it is a play. Holding the ball up like they are going to throw is most certainly an attempt to make a play and freeze the runners.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by yscleo

Thanks for all the response to the thread on runner on 3rd and B/R walks to run toward 2B.

As a follow up question on the pitcher LBR. We had games yesterday. In this exact situation, 1 out, with runner on 3rd, our B/R got a walk and I directed the B/R to run toward 2B. The pitcher that had the ball, in the pitcher's circle, took the ball out of the glove, raises his hand high up (elbow above shoulder) wanting to throw.

Don't know many players who bring their elbow about their shoulder to throw, but I guess it could be.

The runner at 3rd took several steps off. The other team yells to the pitcher watch 3rd, so the pitcher turns to look at 3rd, throwing hand with ball up and was confused. He turned to look at the runner toward 2B, then immediately turns back to look at the runner that is still a few steps off 3rd that had stopped.

The field ump called time and the runner out at 3rd, for lead off. Funny thing is, the B/R that was running toward 2B, did also stop while the pitcher was looking at where to throw.

She is allowed a stop

(Yes the B/R didn't go all the way to 2B.) This B/R did return to 1B when the runner at 3rd was called out. The ump didn't call this B/R out for lead off.

Only one runner can be ruled out due to LBR violation on any one play.

We commented afterwards to the ump that we got different calls from other umps before. The ump got upset and said he gives umpire clinics, and the other umps must have not be keeping up with the new rules that's been there for a few years.

What new rules? The only adjustment to the LBR has been that it goes into effect for all when the BR reaches 1B or put out.

He said as long as there is no throwing motions, the play is not live, even the pitcher holds the ball with throwing hand up.

This is Ontario OASA, so we follow ASA rules. So I guess I'll need to buy the new ASA rulebook.

But last year we were told something different. Ump told us if the pitch hold the hand up, the play becomes live even if he didn't throw the ball. This is going to be a rule we'll need to ask the umps, at the beginning of each game, to know what their understanding is.

[yscleo]

We have boys playing here, so they are not "she"s.

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Rule supplement 34-J. While in the circle and in possession of the ball, any act by the pitcher that, in the umpires judgement, causes the runner to react is considered a play.

The pitcher doesnt even need to raise her hand, if she turns sharply toward the runner, makes an agressive step toward them etc and the runner reacts, it is a play. Holding the ball up like they are going to throw is most certainly an attempt to make a play and freeze the runners.

This is where the ump told us, as long as the pitcher hasn't made the throwing motion, he can hold the ball up as if he's going to throw, then the runner has to go.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Don't know many players who bring their elbow about their shoulder to throw, but I guess it could be.

Sorry, I meant elbow at shoulder height. The hand/ball was above eyes.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Only one runner can be ruled out due to LBR violation on any one play.

Ok, that explains why the B/R wasn't called out, as he returned to 1B.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What new rules? The only adjustment to the LBR has been that it goes into effect for all when the BR reaches 1B or put out.

I don't know what new rule he is referring to. But it sounds to me he was referring to the old rule being if the pitcher raise his hand for throwing motions, it is in play, but now it is not in play if he didn't make a throwing motion but just holds the ball up.

[vcblue]

As time goes on you will learn that when ASA says "Umpire Judgment" they mean just that "umpires judgment". Therefore, you will get some umpires that say just raising the hand is not an attempted play and same say it is an attempted play. I am like Irish and believe the LBR needs to be done away with, especially at higher levels (14A and above). But, because that doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon I just wish ASA would give umpires a definitive answer so we could all be uniform.

[MD Longhorn]

But we have an answer in the rulebook, and you quoted it. Anything that the UMPIRE judges is a play ... is a play.

To say that EVERY time the pitcher raises her arm in the air, it's a play - would be false. To say that it's NEVER a play would also be false. I've seen pitchers turn toward a runner and put an arm in the air where I'd call it nothing - she's got to do something to "make a play". Standing there with your arm in the air is nothing. However if the moment she raises her arm causes a reaction by the runner - I'm pretty likely to call that a play ... because the runner thought it was a play.

That said, any motion along with that arm raise (such as a step forward, or even just quickly raising the arm), I'm giving the benefit of doubt to the runner and letting them react.

Mike - I've been gone a while. I too think the rule can be done away with ... but what do you propose replaces it? Simply requiring the runner to be back before the pitcher pitches? Or something else?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

But we have an answer in the rulebook, and you quoted it. Anything that the UMPIRE judges is a play ... is a play.

Actually, ASA defines a play in Rule 1.

Mike - I've been gone a while. I too think the rule can be done away with ... but what do you propose replaces it? Simply requiring the runner to be back before the pitcher pitches? Or something else?

What do you do in SP? Same thing.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...What do you do in SP? Same thing.

You mean call TIME and meander back into position?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What do you do in SP? Same thing.

Don't you think the ambience/attutude differences would make it more difficult, especially in youth FP, which I assume is the reason for the rule in the first place?

Excuse my years of absence from SP, but what happens in SP if a runner decides to round 1st, and just stay off the base while the pitcher is prepping to pitch?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Don't you think the ambience/attutude differences would make it more difficult, especially in youth FP, which I assume is the reason for the rule in the first place?

Excuse my years of absence from SP, but what happens in SP if a runner decides to round 1st, and just stay off the base while the pitcher is prepping to pitch?

You let them play the game. When it is obvious that all play is finished, you call time and HUSTLE back to position.

For some reason, the FP community keeps on bringing up the "that's stupid. FP is a 'live ball' game" bull$hit. Then when ask what is supposed to happen with the ball in the circle, these folks get a real stupid "what kind of question is that?" look on their face and say, "well, nothing". Do you know what doesn't happen if you kill the ball? You don't have coaches and parents screaming, "look back, look back, she stepped off the base, you have to call her out". You don't have coaches concocting TWP trying to draw an LBR violation. You don't have to worry about how prompt a runner reacts to advance or return. You don't have to worry about whether the pitcher's movements should be considered a play or not. You don't have to worry about chalking a circle on the field. You don't have to worry about whether there was an attempt to 2B after the runner turn right or left or whether she stepped directly toward 2nd or 1st or somewhere in between or whether that was her one allowable stop or not.

Well, if nothing is supposed to happen, why does the ball need to remain live? You know, I've been asking that question for a couple years now and I still haven't gotten a reasonable answer.

[MD Longhorn]

I see your point, Mike - I really do... and I can see how that would simplify things (and probably waste a lot less time).

I don't so SP ... so what do you do if, after a Base on Balls, the BR runs to halfway between 1st and 2nd, and then walks toward 2nd. Keep it live? What if she stops 2/3 of the way and starts walking toward 1st? Can R1 on third remain off 3rd, "playing with the pitcher" while BR moves? Not arguing with you at all ... just wondering if the stoppage of play is codified, or it's something left up to umpire judgement.

One thing (perhaps the only thing) I do like about LBR is the situation with R1 on 3rd having to be ON the bag, or moving in 1 direction while BR advances to 2nd after a walk. Without LBR, R1 could take a decent lead - short enough to return, far enough to score if the ball goes to 2nd, and pretty much guarantee BR 2nd base. With LBR, R1 has to stay (making a play on BR not as risky ... although so many coaches refuse this easy out for some reason), or move (putting herself at risk if she gets too far off).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I see your point, Mike - I really do... and I can see how that would simplify things (and probably waste a lot less time).

I don't so SP ... so what do you do if, after a Base on Balls, the BR runs to halfway between 1st and 2nd, and then walks toward 2nd. Keep it live? What if she stops 2/3 of the way and starts walking toward 1st? Can R1 on third remain off 3rd, "playing with the pitcher" while BR moves? Not arguing with you at all ... just wondering if the stoppage of play is codified, or it's something left up to umpire judgement.

Like I said before. You let them play. When the softball play is obviously finished, and the monkey play begins, you just kill the ball. Yes, you wait for a runner to stop advancing, but when they stop and they are no longer trying to advance and the pitcher isn't making a play, you kill it.

One thing (perhaps the only thing) I do like about LBR is the situation with R1 on 3rd having to be ON the bag, or moving in 1 direction while BR advances to 2nd after a walk. Without LBR, R1 could take a decent lead - short enough to return, far enough to score if the ball goes to 2nd, and pretty much guarantee BR 2nd base. With LBR, R1 has to stay (making a play on BR not as risky ... although so many coaches refuse this easy out for some reason), or move (putting herself at risk if she gets too far off).

It is all jugment and NOTHING that you come up with in a FP came has not already occurred in the SP game. And it seems to have worked all these years.

And yes, you will get the idiot coach who makes a career out of complaining and blaming others for his/her shortcomings.

Coach: Blue, you can't do that, my player was going to ..................
Umpire: Then she SHOULD have done it coach.
Coach: But...
Umpire: We're playing ball, coach.