Boo

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by charliej47

IT appears that the only differenced between ASA and NFHS is that the B3 is skipped for ASA and would bat again for NFHS.

The out made by B3 stands in ASA and does not in NFHS.

[BlitzkriegBob]

Originally Posted by charliej47

IT appears that the only differenced between ASA and NFHS is that the B3 is skipped for ASA and would bat again for NFHS.

No, another difference is that in NFHS, B3's initial strikeout would be negated, and there would only be one out on B2 being skipped. In ASA, B2 would be out for being skipped, and B3's strikeout would stand for a total of two outs.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by greymule

"EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter."

I read this literally, as applying only when the batter who batted out of order and made an out happens to be the next proper batter. I don't see anything in the clarifications or the rules indicating that any batter who bats out of order and makes an out (and BOO is appealed) is skipped over if he is to come to bat later in the inning.

I'm also reluctant to disagree with Mike, but I'm sticking with the comments made by greymule and others. I take the exception literally.

Speaking ASA,
If B1 is scheduled to bat, but B3 bats instead and makes an out: B2 is called out for BOO, B3's out stands, B3 is skipped based on the exception because she is now the proper batter at that instant, and B4 will bat.

If B1 is scheduled to bat, but B4 bats instead and makes an out: B2 is called out for BOO, B4's out stands, B3 is scheduled to be the proper batter, so she is brought to the plate. At the time of "play ball," the order is then B3, B4, B5...

After establishing the proper batter at the time of the BOO, the lineup thereafter cannot change because no rule supports such a change. The exception applies only to the instant that you are deciding who is the proper batter.

Good luck keeping the scorebook on that one.

[charliej47]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

No, another difference is that in NFHS, B3's initial strikeout would be negated, and there would only be one out on B2 being skipped. In ASA, B2 would be out for being skipped, and B3's strikeout would stand for a total of two outs.

As I read the NFHS Case Book, the play is that if B3 makes an out then that out stands. The book states that if B3 gets on base that B3 would be pulled off the base and put back into the box to bat again, if B3 makes an out then the out stands.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From the previously cited Rule Clarifications:

Play 1: With no outs, B9 is scheduled to bat but B1 bats. B1 hits a fly ball that is caught by F7. Before the next pitch, the defense appeals that B1 batted out of order.
Ruling: B9 is out as B9 is the correct batter and B1 remains out. B2 bats next with two outs. Per Rule 7, Section 2 D 2, after the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat and before the next pitch, legal or illegal, to the following batter and before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory; the batter who should have batted is out and the next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat. EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.

Yes ... we agree with that. No one is disputing that if the player that incorrectly batted is scheduled up next (as B1 would be if B9 was supposed to bat), you skip that batter. However, you've extended this to skip a FUTURE batter should the player that batted out of order come up to bat later in that inning. I find no support for that anywhere.

[JefferMC]

You would find support from the scorekeeper who needs a box on the scoresheet to record the player's at-bat, and since he's already taken one in the current column.

Oh, you meant in the rulebook. Well, who cares about that old thing.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by charliej47

As I read the NFHS Case Book, the play is that if B3 makes an out then that out stands. The book states that if B3 gets on base that B3 would be pulled off the base and put back into the box to bat again, if B3 makes an out then the out stands.

Try 7.1.2 (H)
In the case book play, proper batter (B1) was skipped. Improper batter (B2)
hits ground ball and is (a) safe at 1st or (b) out at first.

Result: B1 is declared out, B2's at bat is nullified.
In (a) B2 is removed from base.
In both cases, B2 comes up to bat with one out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Yes ... we agree with that. No one is disputing that if the player that incorrectly batted is scheduled up next (as B1 would be if B9 was supposed to bat), you skip that batter. However, you've extended this to skip a FUTURE batter should the player that batted out of order come up to bat later in that inning. I find no support for that anywhere.

A lot of people keep on referring to the literal interpretation. Where in that rule clarification does it say it had to be the IMMEDIATE proper batter?

Is not a "proper batter" the one scheduled to bat after that batter which precedes him/her in the line up?

You do not take a "proper batter" off the base to hit, why would you bring back the "proper batter" who made a recorded out to come back?

If you want to take it literally......

[greymule]

Where in that rule clarification does it say it had to be the IMMEDIATE proper batter?

It depends on what the meaning of is is.

"If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter."

If we understand present tense to refer to the present and thus understand is to mean is and not will at some later point be, then you skip over that batter only if he is at present scheduled to be the proper batter.

Obviously, everybody in the lineup is scheduled to be the proper batter at some point.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by charliej47

As I read the NFHS Case Book, the play is that if B3 makes an out then that out stands. The book states that if B3 gets on base that B3 would be pulled off the base and put back into the box to bat again, if B3 makes an out then the out stands.

No, that's not what it says. Both the rule book and the case book state that the at-bat by the improper batter is negated. The at-bat cannot be negated and also have the out stand.

ASA, by contrast, states that the advance of the runners is nullified, but not that the at-bat is negated.

The NFHS rule could be a bit more clear on this point, since the PENALTY says,

When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the next pitch (legal or illegal), or prior to an intentional base on balls (S.P.), or before the infielders leave the diamond if a half-inning is ending. The umpire shall declare the batter who should have batted out (not the improper batter). The improper batter's time at bat is negated and she is returned to the dugout/bench area. All outs stand and runners who were not declared out must return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch. If a runner advances because of a stolen base, wild pitch, passed ball (F.P.) or an illegal pitch (F.P.) while the improper batter is at bat, such advance is legal.

But in the full context of the rule, and of the case play, an out recorded by the improper batter does NOT stand.

The case play makes this clear if you do the math. It ends by stating there is one out. If the proper batter is declared out, then the improper batter's out must have been negated, otherwise there would be 2 outs.

[MD Longhorn]

[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA;678449]You do not take a "proper batter" off the base to hit, why would you bring back the "proper batter" who made a recorded out to come back?QUOTE]

Actually, I think you just made my point for me... You do not take a proper batter off the base to hit because the rulebook specifically tells you not to. If what you're asserting is the way they intended it, they would not have needed to tell us again.

In fact, I believe there was a case play with two different BOO's about 5-6 years ago that wouldn't have been BOO (on the 2nd one) if what you're asserting is what they intended ... so, now I have to dig through old books.

Is there a higher authority to ask this of?

Let me ask this... B1 singles... B6 strikes out... B2 ruled out for not batting, B6's out stands, 2 outs, B3 is up. B3-5 all hit. If B7 comes up, I have BOO again. If B6 comes up... do YOU have BOO?

Further... B1 singles ... B6 singles, B1 is thrown out at third base advancing... B2 ruled out for not batting, B1's out stands, remove B6 from the bases... B3-5 - NOW who do you have up?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A lot of people keep on referring to the literal interpretation. Where in that rule clarification does it say it had to be the IMMEDIATE proper batter?

Is not a "proper batter" the one scheduled to bat after that batter which precedes him/her in the line up?

You do not take a "proper batter" off the base to hit, why would you bring back the "proper batter" who made a recorded out to come back?

If you want to take it literally......

In the context of the rule, "proper" and "improper" have a specific meaning with respect to who should have batted, who did bat, and who is to bat next. Broadening the meaning beyond that is not justified by the context.

I'd need more than what you have quoted to take this to mean the improper batter who makes an out is to lose her next time at bat. Specifically, I'd need ASA to say something very close to "If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat, skip that player's next turn at bat." But, then, ASA never has been known for directly and clearly worded rules.

[greymule]

B1 singles. B3 then bats out of order and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. The defense appeals the BOO.

ASA: B2 is out for failing to bat when he should have. The double play stands. Three outs, inning over. B4—correction: B3—leads off the next inning.

Fed: B2 is out for failing to bat when he should have. B1's out at 2B stands. B3 bats again with 2 out.

NCAA: B2 is out for failing to bat when he should have. B1 returns to 1B, and B3 bats with 1 out.

[MD Longhorn]

[QUOTE=greymule;678479]B1 singles. B3 then bats out of order and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. The defense appeals the BOO.

ASA: B2 is out for failing to bat when he should have. The double play stands. Three outs, inning over. B4 leads off the next inning.
[QUOTE]You sure? Playing devil's advocate here, but what rule prevents:

DP stands, B2 is out. Next inning... the last out of the PREVIOUS inning was B2. B3, who has not batted this inning, is up.

[greymule]

Oops! You're absolutely right. The next inning puts B3 up again. The parallel example is right in the "clarifications."

Thanks.