Banned Bats: a real pain in the A.S.A.

[A.K.A.Blue]

Although replies from anyone would be welcome (and certainly couldn't cloud the issue any more), I'd like to address this to IRISHMAFIA {Mike Rowe DASA DUIC NIF/ISF}.

In more than one thread, I've heard you refer to "the press releases" regaurding the A.S.A. banning of bats. The PR's you speak of are the ones linked at the bottom of A.S.A. certified equipment page, correct? Is this the only source for "official" information on this matter?

Ive been a player for 10 years now, and just this year decided to get A.S.A. certified. Ive been aforded the opportunity to train under the guidance of Dave Maudsley, Region 14 UIC and previous long time GSSA UIC, and consider it a great honer.
Settling for the "word on the feild"(concerning banned bats) was fine as a player, but as an official there is much more at stake. I would think the A.S.A. would hand down through the association to their certified umpires a more officially drawn document that each of us could use as a tool to clarify any disputes, rather than just a copy of a web page that any one with a library card can gain access to and print out. An ever-changing web page is not the "official" document I want to produce to an arggueing Manager to show my athourity and knowledge on this matter. Is there anything like this out there that I am missing?

As I said, I am very new at this, and have much to learn. Any help from you, and all those on this forum, is greatly appericiated.

One more ? concerning bats....... O.K. two ?'s..........
There are two lists, one of bats banned, and one of bats approved. Which is safer to go by? And what about the bats that seem to be not on either list? (I.E. Demarini Ultimate Distance 2x [model year 2000]) The "Distance" is on the banned list, and the "Ultimate Distance 2x Lite" is on the approved list. With the Demarini "Ultimate Distance 2x" not on either list , whats a blue to do? This sort of puts out the theory of Worth bats with an "E" or an "L" after the model number should be considered the same bat and banned, as it just designates an end loaded version of the same.

Last ? O.K. here goes..............................

What are your personal opinions on this matter? I'd be very interested in your opinion, if you can voice it. An E-Mail to me directly would be ok if a more public voiceing is a sensitive matter.

Money?....Safety?....Power?....What do you think?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by A.K.A.Blue
Although replies from anyone would be welcome (and certainly couldn't cloud the issue any more), I'd like to address this to IRISHMAFIA {Mike Rowe DASA DUIC NIF/ISF}.

In more than one thread, I've heard you refer to "the press releases" regaurding the A.S.A. banning of bats. The PR's you speak of are the ones linked at the bottom of A.S.A. certified equipment page, correct? Is this the only source for "official" information on this matter?

Ive been a player for 10 years now, and just this year decided to get A.S.A. certified. Ive been aforded the opportunity to train under the guidance of Dave Maudsley, Region 14 UIC and previous long time GSSA UIC, and consider it a great honer.
Settling for the "word on the feild"(concerning banned bats) was fine as a player, but as an official there is much more at stake. I would think the A.S.A. would hand down through the association to their certified umpires a more officially drawn document that each of us could use as a tool to clarify any disputes, rather than just a copy of a web page that any one with a library card can gain access to and print out. An ever-changing web page is not the "official" document I want to produce to an arggueing Manager to show my athourity and knowledge on this matter. Is there anything like this out there that I am missing?

As I said, I am very new at this, and have much to learn. Any help from you, and all those on this forum, is greatly appericiated.

One more ? concerning bats....... O.K. two ?'s..........
There are two lists, one of bats banned, and one of bats approved. Which is safer to go by? And what about the bats that seem to be not on either list? (I.E. Demarini Ultimate Distance 2x [model year 2000]) The "Distance" is on the banned list, and the "Ultimate Distance 2x Lite" is on the approved list. With the Demarini "Ultimate Distance 2x" not on either list , whats a blue to do? This sort of puts out the theory of Worth bats with an "E" or an "L" after the model number should be considered the same bat and banned, as it just designates an end loaded version of the same.

Last ? O.K. here goes..............................

What are your personal opinions on this matter? I'd be very interested in your opinion, if you can voice it. An E-Mail to me directly would be ok if a more public voiceing is a sensitive matter.

Money?....Safety?....Power?....What do you think?

The web site may change, but the press release doesn't. That may be why ASA issued a completely separate press release instead of modifying the first. The press release IS your official document. I have had players show me lists of approved bats that were printed at the beginning of the season. There is no arguing with the managers as your uniform and assignment to that game are your authority. If a manager doesn't believe it, your better off with him not being there the rest of the evening.

You go by the banned bat list and yes, unless specifically noted, all bats of the same model are considered banned. I'm sure you have heard this before, but if you are going to error, error on the side of safety, within reason, of course.

I don't need to be private about this issue. This is a safety issue, pure and simple. By enforcing the given bat standards, of which the manufacturers were aware prior to production, ASA gains nothing except the appreciation of those who understand the danger of such equipment. The only people who can possibly make money off of this issue are the bat manufacturers. Of course, they've been doing everything they can since 1997 when they saw the standards coming to blame ASA concerning this issue. Even though ASA basically gave them more than two years to cycle their product and bring it up to code, the manufacturers continued to sell a product they knew was going to be declared illegal.

If I were a player, I would be pissed at the manufacturers, not ASA.

Of course, this is just my opinion, but I believe it to be accurate.

[A.K.A.Blue]

I'm glad to see someone who shares the same view as I about being pissed at the manufactures of millions of dollars worth of what seems to be useless equip. What am I, as a player/consumer, supposed to do with all these bats? Some purchased used. Even if they were to offer a return policy, which would only imply some form of admission of intent to defraud the public regardless of how well disclaimed, reciepts from the sale of a bat to a fellow player wouldn't fly. How unfair would that be when you consider the sale of the bat to a freind more than likely was to help fund the purchase of yet another "knowingly" soon to be useless stick of the latest material and design. Not to mention the level of play posibly raised, by the used bat, of the lower level player. Who will in turn now need, or think he needs, equipment worthy of his new level, and buy a new one himself. Selling his old one and so on bla bla bla.......

I do however find myself wondering why so much attention on the bats? Why not just go with a lower Comp. ratio (or higher which ever way those numbers work) and/or a diff. core? The potential $ to be lost in league fees (due to those players either angry at whomever or too broke to buy in due to a full equipment revamp), and sponser comps. for prize winnings and so on, would be at greater risk by pissing of the "Worths" and the "Mikens" by forcing a big recall and/or retool. It will just reflect in the price of what ever equipment they replace it with that meets A.S.A. standards. We the players sufer either way. Doesn't the A.S.A. see that? I do appreciate the safety concerns that the A.S.A. seeks to enforce on my behalf. Really I do. The few, luckily non fatal, incidents ive been privi too make me queezy enough. The thought of a freind dieing in a game is unthinkable. Avoiding this is the most important thing. Wouldn't the ball be a less costly, less contriversial avenue of correction? Let the bat manf. make all the tech avail. at what ever price. Let them sell their snake oil, just make the anidote. Not exicute the snake oil pedaler. The American way, some might say.

Any way, what are your thoughts on the "ball" thing? and in closeing, do you think that the U.S.S.A. and or U.S.A. will follow suit? Why haven't they as of yet?

[SDUMP]

As a 14-year official and a player before that, I can speak of experience that the balls have changed - USSSA used a .50 core ball (which we still use for home run hitting contests during some tournaments that my sporting goods store puts on - after all, it isn't like you can sell that ball anymore because it is too "hot").
ASA has switched from a .47 core to a .44 core, and I believe is contemplating going to a .40 core (that is according to our state UIC and Men's Commissioner).
As far as the bats, if the ball loses its pop, that means the bats are going to have to get more pop - a vicious cycle, but one that is going to continue.
As far as the manufacturers - they plan to redistribute the weight of the bats to make them not so end-loaded when the consumer sends their bats back, thus complying with ASA regulations (this is what my manager - UMP57006 - was told by the Worth rep).
So right now, it is ugly, but like Mike said, your list from the ASA website (dated) is all you need to show the manager - in fact, I carry one in my ball bag.
Hopefully, the manufacturers and ASA get together and get it straightened out for next season.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by A.K.A.Blue




I do however find myself wondering why so much attention on the bats? Why not just go with a lower Comp. ratio (or higher which ever way those numbers work) and/or a diff. core? The potential $ to be lost in league fees (due to those players either angry at whomever or too broke to buy in due to a full equipment revamp), and sponser comps. for prize winnings and so on, would be at greater risk by pissing of the "Worths" and the "Mikens" by forcing a big recall and/or retool. It will just reflect in the price of what ever equipment they replace it with that meets A.S.A. standards. We the players sufer either way. Doesn't the A.S.A. see that? I do appreciate the safety concerns that the A.S.A. seeks to enforce on my behalf. Really I do. The few, luckily non fatal, incidents ive been privi too make me queezy enough. The thought of a freind dieing in a game is unthinkable. Avoiding this is the most important thing. Wouldn't the ball be a less costly, less contriversial avenue of correction? Let the bat manf. make all the tech avail. at what ever price. Let them sell their snake oil, just make the anidote. Not exicute the snake oil pedaler. The American way, some might say.

Any way, what are your thoughts on the "ball" thing? and in closeing, do you think that the U.S.S.A. and or U.S.A. will follow suit? Why haven't they as of yet?

I just worked a tournament in FL. Using COR .44 w/525 compression, these players, without the banned bats (first list), were hitting balls into the top of 60' trees that were 20' behind a 300' fence.

ASA has already downgraded the ball for next year to COR .44 w/375 compression for next year. The manufacturers were included in the discussion and decision making process, so they shouldn't have a problem with this one.

However, regardless of the bat and ball, there is still no technology to protect the recreational infielder from any ball coming off the bat at 125' per second. Last I heard, that was the ASA standard.

[Dakota]

So, we have all these bat manufacturers investing millions is metallurgy, materials science, bat performance engineering, testing, marketing, etc., etc., and, hey, they were ALL just innocent victims of random manufacturing problems and quality control.

Sure they were.

What we have here, it seems to me, is most likely bat manufacturers submitting dead bats of a similar design for testing and then manufacturing hot bats after certain "innocent adjustments" to the process - just for manufacturing efficiency, donchaknow.

That, and clear fraud - a couple of these bats carried the stamp, but had NEVER been submitted for testing by the ASA.

I wonder if any teed off lawyers play on any of these teams...

[A.K.A.Blue]

Is that accurate? 125' per. sec. do you realize a .32 cal. s&w long hand gun round is rated at 584 fps. Thats just under 1/4 the speed of a bullet @ 40-60 feet. Scary that, that is the limit. Now I dont claim to know what speed is acceptable, but as a third and first baseman, those numbers may scoot me back a click or two. I've been waiting for that one good shot (or bad shot as it would be) that is bound to come one day. But knowing the acctual numbers, I might just wait on the fringe from here on out.
Is there anywhere more detailed data can be obtained? Or do I not want to know?

[A.K.A.Blue]

Oh yeh! Almost forgot.............. How long do you think a feild full of lawyers would last. As we moved them in to replace each other on the mound, one by one, I give the game 25 min max.*



* No acctual Lawyers were injured in the typeing of this post. Any similarities to any Lawyers alive or dead is strictly coincidental and in no way represents the opinion of this forum and or its managment. Thank you.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by A.K.A.Blue
Is that accurate? 125' per. sec. do you realize a .32 cal. s&w long hand gun round is rated at 584 fps. Thats just under 1/4 the speed of a bullet @ 40-60 feet. Scary that, that is the limit. Now I dont claim to know what speed is acceptable, but as a third and first baseman, those numbers may scoot me back a click or two. I've been waiting for that one good shot (or bad shot as it would be) that is bound to come one day. But knowing the acctual numbers, I might just wait on the fringe from here on out.
Is there anywhere more detailed data can be obtained? Or do I not want to know?

Think about it. When one of the monsters hits a home run, how long does it take to clear a 300' fence? I'm not talking about the wind-aided, pop-up HR, but the shot that doesn't even give the outfielders the chance to move.

Usually around 2.5 to 3 seconds (opinion, no proof). And these babies didn't go out on a line (well, not all of them), so they had to go up a little and come down a little, but still get out of the park before I can get all the way out from behind the catcher.

Now, that is a 4" sphere with some atmospheric resistence which has a dying speed halfway there. So, it must be hauling tail for the first 150', wouldn't you think?

[WestMichBlue]

125 FPS? That is less than a half second to the pitcher, and maybe a half second to some infielders. The average person's reaction time is 3/4 seconds. Yikes!

Sure that is the maximum allowed, and that's from a live bat and a powerful hitter. But there are too many live bats and powerful hitters out there - I going to get my recreation from golf.

Response to Dakota: don't get too hung up on conspiracy theories. Major manufacturing companies have more attornys in HR than hiring specialists anymore. They are there to prevent a company from deliberately putting itself in a liability situation.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Response to Dakota: don't get too hung up on conspiracy theories

I wasn't suggesting any conspiracy - only greed.

Each bat company wants to have the hottest bat out there in order to sell more to all the Moose and Moosettes. My guess (being an engineer and knowing how "approvals" tend to be manipulated) is that the bats were designed to be the hottest possible that could pass the test, that those submitted for approval were pre-tested at the manufacturer to ensure they would pass, and that the routinely manufactured bat was, shall we say, at the other end of the design tolerances.

I wasn't suggesting any collusion between / among the manufacturers.

[whiskers_ump]

I know this is tasteless, but I just could not resist.

Is this bat legal



Model Silver-haired Laslonycteris noctivagans {4 in. long}.

Forgive me Mike and others but ya'll needed a break from this question.
It has been posted bout 10 times on the three boards I have
viewed..


glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
I know this is tasteless, but I just could not resist.

Is this bat legal



Model Silver-haired Laslonycteris noctivagans {4 in. long}.

Forgive me Mike and others but ya'll needed a break from this question.
It has been posted bout 10 times on the three boards I have
viewed..


glen

I must be missing a board or two

[A.K.A.Blue]

Thanks for the "comic relief", Glen. Your right, all this is getting a bit repetitive. I am just so tired of all the rumors about why it took ASA sooooo long to get to this, and why two year old bats are being taken off the field, and why the manufacturers would knowingly produce a product that WOULD cost them a fortune to "recertify" (what a joke) and or replace, all the while pissing off the average Joe, who lets face it, pays way too much for their products and keeps their doors open and their children fed. Would Chevy stay in business if they knowingly and intentionaly sold me a car that the feds told me I couldn't drive on public roads. Only to later tell me they are not going to do anything to fix my car, or replace it with one, legal to drive on public roads. Instead all they offer me is the consolation of the private road system. For these companies to tell me that its OK that the ASA wont let me use it, because USSSA, and NSA still alow them. How dumb do they think I am? Demarini will have to send a rep. to my house, pick up my old bats, replace them with brand new models, appologize to me sincerely, throw in a set or two of batting gloves for my inconvenience, before I will swing another Demarini product.

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!..........and Monkeys might shoot out of my butt and D.H. for me.

Flashy the Bat posted by Papasmurf in the earlier thread gave me an idea. How fast do you think this will spread?
This entire Bat fiasco should be officialy labeled.......

"GUANO-2K2"
Cause plain and simple, thats all this is, a big steamy pile of Bat SH--.

Hey how bout a class action suite against all batt manuf. in violation. Settlement to be paid in bats to all who sign league waivers, nation wide.

Thats enough poor punctuation and sentance structure for one night, my english teacher would roll over if she saw that run-on sentence back there.

Remember............."GUANO-2K2"....pass it on, and remember we coined the phrase.