Pulled foot ?

[TERRY1]

R1 on 3 R2 on 2 B1 BU in C 2 outs. Batter hits to F6 deep in hole F6 fire it to F3 BU calls the out. R1 crosses hp R2 has rounded 3b still heading home. Definse heres the out call and is leaving the field and R2 contiues and cross hp. Definsive Coach ask PU for an appeal of F3 pulling foot. PU refers coach to BU for appeal. BU goes to PU for help on pulled foot of F3. PU says foot was pulled. BU awards 1ST base to batter runner. Score both runs or put R2 back on 3? R2 probaly would not have scored if there would have been a safe call originally. FED rules. By the way I was the lucky BU.

Thanks
TS

[Roger Greene]

Terry,

IMO, a perfect example of why you ask for help before you make the call, or you make the call and stick with it.

The continuing action makes the "help" from PU cause more problems than sticking with the call.

If I am PU with runners scoring, you are on your on at first. I'm watching touches at home and 3rd in your sitch.

Get the best angle and distance you can and use all evidence available to you. When the offensive coach asks for the "appeal" (man, I hate that umpires let coaches get away with this) Tell him what you saw from your position. Remind him you were in the proper position with 2 man mechanics, and remind him if he wants someone on top of every call to push the TD or league for 3 man crews.

Roger Greene

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
Terry,

IMO, a perfect example of why you ask for help before you make the call, or you make the call and stick with it.

The continuing action makes the "help" from PU cause more problems than sticking with the call.

If I am PU with runners scoring, you are on your on at first. I'm watching touches at home and 3rd in your sitch.

Get the best angle and distance you can and use all evidence available to you. When the offensive coach asks for the "appeal" (man, I hate that umpires let coaches get away with this) Tell him what you saw from your position. Remind him you were in the proper position with 2 man mechanics, and remind him if he wants someone on top of every call to push the TD or league for 3 man crews.

Roger Greene

I couldn't disagree with you more, Roger.

You see the play, you make the call. ONLY if you believe you did not see the play properly do you give up the call. I do not have a problem going to my partner to ask for help if the is the possibility that there is something I didn't see. I have worked games alone to those with a 6-umpire crew and even then there are going to be calls made from a less-than-desireable position.

In the play above, the second the BU asked for help, the play should have been killed and no runners allowed to advance.

[TERRY1]

From my postion behind an 3b side of f6 I could not move in towards 1b with f6 moving to ball and r2 advancing to toward 3b. F3 makes big strech to thrown ball from f6 and did non't raise bag foot and gave no indication from my veiw point of having come off of 1b. R2 has cross hp by time of appeal. But at the time of the call has not crossed home plate. So if the out stood r2's score would not have counted. I just feel we put the defense at a disadvantage and wonder if we could have put r2 back on 3b and have any rule book inturpation to do so. I never go for help in this situtation except for possible pulled foot.

[Roger Greene]

Mike,
I think my first sentence, and your first sentence of the second paragraph are saying the same thing.

Again, If I'm going to ask for help, I do it before I make the call. If I have enough evidence to make a call, I'm going to stick with that call.

If I'm the PU, and my BU has made a call, and continuing action has rendered a reversal problematic, them I'm going to quietly advise him to stick with his call.

Even with nobody on, and with me following the BR down to the running lane, if the BU makes a call I immediately turn back to the plate and make no comment. If he wants my input, he needs to ask before the call, not after. (Mentioned in pre-game if I'm with a new umpire.)

This is the mechanic that I've heard espoused at numerous clinics and by many experienced umpires. It maintains the balance between offense and defense, and avoids the blow ups (and I caused a couple early in my career by not doing so) caused by late reversals.

In this neck of the woods, only inexperienced coaches, or coaches who realize they have inexperienced umpires, play that whining game of "Come on blue, you gotta appeal that call" on plays that go against them.

Roger Greene

[Andy]

Originally posted by TERRY1
From my postion behind an 3b side of f6 I could not move in towards 1b with f6 moving to ball and r2 advancing to toward 3b. F3 makes big strech to thrown ball from f6 and did non't raise bag foot and gave no indication from my veiw point of having come off of 1b. R2 has cross hp by time of appeal. But at the time of the call has not crossed home plate. So if the out stood r2's score would not have counted. I just feel we put the defense at a disadvantage and wonder if we could have put r2 back on 3b and have any rule book inturpation to do so. I never go for help in this situtation except for possible pulled foot.

You had no reason to believe F3 pulled her foot, you called the out. Coach asks you to get help. Your reply shoud be: "Coach, I saw the whole play, in my judgement, her foot did not come off the bag, I'm not going to ask my partner, the call stands."

If you are not sure, kill the ball, ask for help before you make the call. You are not giving up the call, you are gathering a piece of missing information needed to make the call.

As to your specific situation, I would have placed R2 at third base as that is where she would likely have ended up if the BR was safe.

Mike - I'm having a hard time seeing where you disagree with Roger. It looks to me like you are both saying the same thing with different wording.

[SamNVa]

I agree with Roger here. If it looked like F3 held the bag, you make the call and stick with it, no defensive appeals after the play is over. If you're not sure about a possible pulled foot, you immediately ask the PU ("Roger, did she have the bag?), then sell the call, SAFE or OUT depending on the PU's response ("No, she didn't" or "Yes, she did.")

In reality, the defense should not be allowed to appeal this call because it is a judgement call. You judged that F3's foot was on the bag at the time of the catch, and that judgement is not appealable.

Now, since you did ultimately change your call, your partenr could invoke rule 10.6.C to put R2 back on 3rd.

Rule 10.6.C The Plate Umpire may rectify any situation in which the reversal of an umpire's decision or a delayed call by an umpire places the batter-runner, a runner, or the defensive team in jeopardy. ...

[TERRY1]

Thanks for all the responses. I still belive it to be ok to ask for help on the pulled foot. I want to get the call right when at all possible. Not invokine rule 10.6.C is where we screwed up. O well they still won the game so no real harm was done and I belive I will handel this situtation better next time.

[SDUMP]

Get the call right, then invoke Rule 10.6 by sending the runner back to third. Since Terry didn't go to the PU, why would you stick with the call on an impossible angle? That's why there are two of you out there.

[SamNVa]

SDUMP,

I don't think any of us is saying that the BU can't or ahouldn't go to the PU for help on a pulled foot. What Roger, Andy and I are saying is that if the BU needs help on a pulled foot (or a swipe tag), s/he should go to the PU BEFORE s/he makes the call; after the play is over is too late to appeal to the PU for help.

In general, the BU should make the best call he can without help from the PU. If, in his judgement, the fielder was in contact with the bag at the time of the catch, then he should make the out call, and stick with it, it is a judgement call after alll If the BU really is not sure if the fielder had the bag, then ask immediately. or not at all.

Rule 10.6.C is not intended to be an easy fix for a difficult situation, as it usually doesn't leave anyone happy.

JMO
SamC

[Del-Blue]

Roger,

I have to go with Mike on this.

You say to ask for help before a call is made. If I'm BU, I am worrying about the play, not if the PU is following the runner to first. I will make the call, If The coach wants an appeal, and I THINK i may not have seen a pulled foot I will go for help. If I do not question my own call, I will not go for help. Sometimes I will ask for help on my own, BUT only after I make the call, and only for a swipe tag, or a pulled foot at first. I am not going to hang the PU out by asking him for a call without discussing it with him first. If I come to you for an appeal, I will ask you direct questions Did She pull her foot, Did She make the tag on the swipe. That is the only info I want from the PU. If I just point to you to make a call, you might think she held the bag, but beat the throw. That is not your call, I only want to know if she pulled her foot, I am asking for no other info.

Bob

[Roger Greene]

Bob and Company,

Lets go through this again. Terry's play. R2, R3, 2 out. Play at first. Bu in C makes out call.

Now, lets review umpire responsibilities. BU has first play on infield. BU watches ball to fielder, watches throw to first and catch by F3, watches BR for touch of first, and takes BR to any other bases as necessary.

PU watches pitch, then watches batted ball to fielder. His first responsibility is fair/foul, then catch/no catch. His responsibilities once ball is released to first would be (in order of importance) to watch R3 touch home, watch R2 touch 3rd and be prepared for any second play on the infield if BU has committed himself to first, and then if necessary watch R2 touch home, and last watch 1st for a pulled foot or swipe tag.

Onec BU makes an out call at first, the actions of the defense are based on the third out call. Possibly the actions of R2 are predicated upon that out call also. It is pretty normal for a runner to jog home and touch the plate even after a 3rd out, though with a safe or no call at 1st, she may very well stop at 3rd.

It is my, and many other experienced umpires, opinion that once the BU is convinced he has enough evidence to make a call, he should not then ask for additional information from his partner. If he does not feel he has enough evidence from his own observations, he should ask for additional observations from his partner before making his call. That way the defense and offense are both on notice that continuing action may be relevant, and will act accordingly.

This is true for any call made during continuing action, for a passed ball 3rd strike on a check swing (PU must ask immediatley or not at all), and on any call that results in a 3rd out with runners on base.

This maintains the balance between the offense and defense and is the common practice in the area and leagues I work.

So what if F3 did pull her foot slightly off the base? Missed judgement calls are a part of the game. If they are not put the little rubber target up behind the plate, and if F1 gets the ball through the bullseye, then it is a strike. Use instant replays and slow motion to analyze the close calls at 1st.

In about 175 games as a head coach I won one game because of an umpire's mistake and lost one game on an umpire's mistake. In between 1500 and 2000 games as an umpire (I didn't keep a log in the early years) I don't think a mistake by the crew ever changed the outcome of a game. We (including myself) may have made mistakes that added or cost runs but I can't recall any changed outcomes.

Missed judgement calls are part of the game, and IMO usually come out as a wash.

I'll stand behind my statement to Terry. Ask for any help before, and only before, you make a call. After you make a judgement call, consider it final. Then you never get to trying to read a crystal ball to place runners. This works well for many of us.

Roger Greene

[Andy]

Bob,

I'm going to address some things in your message:

If I'm BU, I am worrying about the play, not if the PU is following the runner to first.

My PU better be looking up the line there, especially when I am coming from the C position to make that call. I trust my partner to be there to help me if needed.

. Sometimes I will ask for help on my own, BUT only after I make the call, and only for a swipe tag, or a pulled foot at first.

This is asking for trouble, in my opinion. If you make a call and then ask your partner for help, you have just lost credibility as an umpire. On every close play the remainder of the game, you'll hear, "Get some help Blue!"

If I come to you for an appeal, I will ask you direct questions Did She pull her foot, Did She make the tag on the swipe. That is the only info I want from the PU. If I just point to you to make a call, you might think she held the bag, but beat the throw. That is not your call, I only want to know if she pulled her foot, I am asking for no other info.

I agree 100% here, just ask the questions before you make a call. Sam spelled out the situation beautifully. As you said, you are not asking the PU to make the call, you are asking for further information you need to make the call.

As a BU, it is your responsibility to get to the best position to make the call. Terry's play can be one of the most difficult to do that because of where the BU starts and the other activity going on between second and third base. If you can't get a good look at the play at first and have any doubt, go for help before you make a call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Yes, I've been to quite a few clinics, seminars and schools involving NFHS, ASA and ISF. Some instructors even take a couple of minutes to tell you how to handle such an event and part of that information is not "stick with the call."

It is my belief that anyone who preaches to knowingly stick with a wrong call because they are too proud or it is a judgment call is perpetuating a "smug attitude" reputation most players believe umpires carry. I have never taken heat for getting the call right. I have often been thanked for recognizing the fact that someone may have had a better angle on the play even though they did not receive the call they wanted.

It is not possible to cover ALL the angles no matter how many umpires you have on the field. That is a fact of softball life.

The C position in FP ball sucks for calls at 1B, but is necessitated by the nature and rules of the game. Trailing a runner to 1st is NOT the highest priority for the PU once a runner has reached 2B.

So what happens if you think it may have been a pulled foot, but then again, maybe not. You look for help from your partner and s/he is in a holding zone halfway up the 3B line where they are supposed to be. Now you have not only failed to make a call, but possibly end up standing there like a deer in the headlights. No matter what you do, you are going to look like the town fool. Going to your partner prior to making a call is not asking for help, but giving up the call.

I'll let my eyes tell my brain what they think they saw, and let my brain make the call. No appeals will be allowed until after the play is dead. I will never ask for help when I had the call. I will never ask for help unless it is possible something happened that I didn't see. If I ask an umpire for help, he damn well better be honest with me.

I gave up a call last week in the manner you're suggesting and I took a load of crap from the defense. Three-umpire system, I'm PU sidling with a runner hung up between 3B and home. BU on the back end near 3B. When the runner broke for home, I moved with him. Unfortunately, the defender with the ball who had the runner dead out at the plate decided to lunge for the runner instead of throwing the ball. Even with a quick stop, I couldn't see a tag on the backside of the play. I immediately went to my partner:
"Ronny, did he make a tag?" At that point, I gave up the call since I just admitted I saw no tag. My partner's appropriate reply was, "safe." Man, the manager of the Air Force team was all over me and I didn't even make the call. Even though I was exactly where I was supposed to be, the player opted for the low-percentage play and I couldn't see a tag. Sometimes the players just don't make the right plays.

Meanwhile, back at the HS & college level, ANYTIME a PU is asked to go for help on a checked swing, you go. Doesn't make any difference if the BU is in the proper position, you go. Does it make any sense? Not always, but you always ask for help. And why is that? Because that is what the rule book says to do? In some cases, but I have also heard umpires tell me they do that they are just appeasing the coach to calm the team down or it doesn't hurt because they know their call will stand they covered it in the pre-game meeting.. Hmmm, let me see here. It's okay to acknowledge and appeal on a measily ball/strike call, but not on something as important as a safe/out call.

Well, now I am confused.

[Tap]

I agree with Mike on this. If I'm BU, and I see an out, I call an out. If someone contends F3 pulled his foot and I didn't have an angle for that or otherwise wasn't watching as well as I should have been, I may decide to go ask the PU in private if he saw a pulled foot. If PU saw the pulled foot, great, we can fix the call. If PU did not see a pulled foot, the offense is at least appreciative that I accepted their request to ask for help.

As for the runner from 2nd coming around to score, I don't think that will happen very often and likely would not impact the game outcome (I do SP). Anyway, if I am sure that the runner would not have tried to score from 2nd on the grounder to the infield if an immediate safe was called, I would send the runner back to 3rd per the rule cited by someone in a prior post.