Appeal a turn toward second.
 

Question around FED 8-4-2(b)

R1 at 3B, no outs. BR hits ball to F5 and then is safe at 1B. She overruns down the right field line. R1 held at 3B and does not score.

While BR is approximate 30 or 40 feet down the line, she makes an attempt for 2B and then turns back toward 1B and just stops. F3 while holding the ball steps on 1B and appeals that F3 has made an attempt for second. BU rules B2 is out on appeal since F3 is not expected to chase B2 into right field to tag her out, especially with a runner at third.

Anyone disagree?

Yes. I disagree.

Me, too. F3 would have been smarter to throw the ball to the pitcher in the circle.

I agree with the ruling. If the umpire did not honor the appeal and call the out, B2 could stop and just stand without returning to 1st base, F3 could stand on 1st base, and the 3rd base runner would stand off base. At some point the umpire must make a call to continue the ball game.

If the ball is thrown to the pitcher after the attempt, the defense has lost the out. There has to be an out for the attempt.

So when the runner heads toward 2B during the live ball without being tagged, how are you going to support the ruling when it is protested?

It's a live ball and the runner is allowed to advance at their own peril. Unless the runner missed the base (which is not part of this scenario), there is no appeal available at that point.

If F3 threw the ball to the pitcher in the circle, the LBR is in effect the the runner cannot change her mind.

When a runner misses 1B and overruns, we call safe or out depending on where the runner was when the fielder received the throw. This is an appeal by the defense and must be done before the runner gets back to the base.

A lot of times F3 [or F4 covering 1B in bunt situations] will not realize the runner missed the base. Often times, the runner does realize s/he missed the base. Some runners are blatantly obvious in their attempt to get back, some are blatantly oblivious, some are very cool about it hoping no one noticed.

The question after all this is can anyone on the defense appeal the runner missing the base? Different for ASA/NFHS?

On a routine play, F1 or F4 may be in the best situation to see this [if they actually pay attention]. If they yell out "she missed the base!" do we accept the appeal as such, or must the runner be physically tagged?

Yes, I'm well aware of that, but that was not the case here and only mentioned as the only live ball appeal available and resolved by simple touching the base while in possession of the ball.

Okay, still off topic.

No, that wasn't the question.

Maybe you should start another thread instead of hijacking this one.:D

Not sure what appeal Tex is ruling on.

Ted
B. live. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder
in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a
caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if they
are still on the playing field.

Paul

But attempting to put out a runner who attempts to advance to 2B is not an appeal play. For that matter, 8.7.H (ASA) demands the runner be tagged while not in contact with the base to be ruled out. Doubt NFHS is different.

There is a proper live ball appeal with F3 holding the ball while standing on 1st base, concerning the batter-runner’s attempt toward 2nd base that must be addressed. I am not going to allow all 3 players to stop and stare at each other waiting for something to happen. The umpire must make a ruling on the live ball appeal before allowing the next part of this play to continue (that of the LBR to be in effect).

Allowing the LBR to be in effect allows all 3 players to go to their proper base / position as nothing happened, thus removing the live ball appeal.

Now how are you going to handle the protest of not addressing the proper live ball appeal of the batter runner’s attempt toward 2nd base at the proper time, and allowing this play to continue?

The live ball appeal must be addressed first.

Again I have an out on the batter-runner on the proper live ball appeal. Now throw the ball to F1 and engage the LBR and allow the play to continue.

There is nothing to appeal. The batter/runner touched first base and was safe, then made a move toward second and must now be tagged with the ball to be out.

Ted,
You ask can anyone make an appeal. If the ball is live any player can but they need the ball.

Tex,
What is being appealed? Look through the appeals section and see if you can find something that applies to the OP.

Paul

There is no appeal available.

Again, there is no live ball appeal and if the LBR is in effect, it still isn't a free pass to a base as the defense can still make an attempt to retire any runner.

Simple, I'm going to properly uphold the protest.

Then you are going to lose the protest.

Under NFHS 2-1-2-d, Types of Appeals "Attempting to advance to second base after making the turn at first base overrunning first base (live-ball appeal only)." underline added

So, this is a defined appeal in NFHS, but can only be remedied as a live ball appeal.

Under NFHS 2-1-3-a Methods by which an appeal may be made "Live. An appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball by touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if she is still on the playing field (even if she is standing on another base)."

That should be clear that ONLY missed bases or bases left too soon may be appealed live by touching the applicable base; in any other case, the sole remedy is to tag the runner with the ball.

So, yes this an appeal situation; however, you cannot rule on it unless appealed properly, which requires tagging the runner. The only protest that could be upheld is one stating that the umpire misapplied the rule by declaring an out without a proper appeal.

The defense has all the options available to them at this point; 1) advance toward R2, who is in jeopardy if tagged, and a) tag her out, or b) possibly get a call for out of basepath, since R2 must then advance directly toward either 1st or 2nd base, not in any other avoiding direction (now avoiding a tag), or 2) return the ball to F1 in the circle, which forces R1 to remain on 3rd, forces R2 to immediately advance to 2nd or return to 1st (LBR violation if she hesitates), and then the option of playing on R2 when she gets closer to the base to get the out (while holding R1 at 3rd since she cannot leave the base until a play or faked play is made).

In no case does the rule allow the umpire to declare a live ball appeal out on R1 unless she is tagged with the ball while off a base.

There really are a small, limited number of things that can constitute a legitimate appeal play. The obvious ones are missing a base, leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball and batting out of order.

Those all make sense are are obvious. ASA and NFHS list one more appealable situation- Attempting to advance to second base after making a turn at first base. Generally, appeals apply to a violation of the playing rules. I don't really get how a runner rounding first base and making an attempt toward second is considered a "violation" of any rule. The runner is legally attempting to advance and isn't doing anything prohibited by rule. That just seems an odd thing to include under the catagory of "appeals", when it seems to fall under the normal rules requiring a tag on an advancing runner.

But the rule is there, for whatever reason, lumped in with other appeals that are violations of specific playing rules. And the rules are clear that this particular play DOES require an actual tag of the runner, not the base!

The NFHS rule adds a little note that this particular appeal can ONLY be executed as a live-ball appeal (that makes it different than all the others, which can be made during a dead ball). The ASA rule doesn't spell that out, but a reading of their rule infers that this is also the case in their game.

(For whatever credit the NFHS gets for clarifying this must be a live-ball appeal, you have to ding them for the sentence that describes this as an appeal play. It is an oddly-worded sentence fragment that in itself makes no sense. There seems to be a word or two missing, or something printed out-of-sequence, or pooly edited. Maybe that is adding to the confusion.)

Let's call this an appeal play (the rules do, after all) and let's agree that it can only be a live-ball appeal (the rules agree with that). Now take a minute to read about live-ball appeals.

"(A live-ball appeal) may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if (the runner) is still on the playing field."

The rule says that tagging the base is an acceptable form of live-ball appeal in two circumstances: A missed base or one left too soon on catch. The play offered here is neither one of those!

That leaves us with tagging the runner as the only means of executing a successful live-ball appeal.

It still bugs me that the rules treat this as some sort of "appealable violation" by the runner, when the runner has the right to try to round the bag and a tag would be required on any other runner rounding any other base and being off of it during a live ball. But I don't see any way in the world that you can get from the rules that simply tagging the base is an acceptable means of making this appeal.

She made the attempt, she is now a runner between 1st and 2nd, not someone that has overrun a base. It is no different than if she had rounded 1st and was halfway between 1st and 2nd. If a runner gets into a staring match there do you let the defense appeal that she's being no fun? It's a classic rundown sitch where the defense has to force the issue.

In the original scenario we need a tag for the out.

I have an issue with the attitude that "I am not going to let 3 players just stand there and stare each other down waiting for something to happen."

Hey Tex, it isn't your game. The players play and you just call it. Ya gotta have a tag in that situation.

Yes, it is labeled an "appeal". I believe this is to be an incorrect application of the term.

In layman's terms which I'm pretty sure applies in all rule sets:

An appeal is when an umpire may not make a decision on a rule violation until requested to do so by a predetermined authority.

Since there is no rule forbidding a player from making an attempt to advance to 2B (remember, not talking LBR here), there is no violation on which the umpire may be asked to rule.

The rule simply permits a BR to run through (over run) 1B without jeopardy of being retired for being off the base. When a player does, in the umpire's judgment, make an attempt to advance, that player has elected to forego this protection and if the ball is still live, play simply continues.

Unfortunately, you don't have any other option at this point. As has been clearly pointed out, this is a play in progress and the defense needs to do something to retire the runner between first and second.

If this happens, I hope it is in a timed game with the clock running! :)

I agree that this isn't an appeal that meets the definition by ASA, but the rules (every version I know of) call it an appeal nonetheless. Here's definitions used:
NCAA: A play OR a rule violation on which the umpire does not make a ruling ...
NFHS: A play on which an umpire does not make a ruling ....
ASA (Current): A play on a rule violation on which an umpire may not make a decision unless requested.
ASA (2005 and before): An appeal play is a play on which an umpire may not make a decision ....

We all know that the ASA rulebook came first, and was the basis for the others. ASA many years ago decided to include this situation as an appeal (and I believe baseball does as well), and the others maintained that, as it did meet the definition. It is tangential only in that it is the only situation that isn't a rule violation called an appeal; in my mind, the only reason to consider it an appeal is that the players don't know in advance if the runner will be ruled in jeopardy, and we aren't to tell them until asked. So, they are asking for a ruling (by making the live ball appeal as a tag), and only then do we rule if in jeopardy or still protected as simply overrunning.

In the 2006 ASA rulebook, this is an undocumented change; apparently an editorial decision. "They" removed language stating when the appeal could no longer be made from the definition section, as it was correctly located in the rule section 8-7.F-I Effect, and removed the redundancy of repeating the defined term in the definition. At the same time, they added the words "on a rule violation" without that being a rule change; somone thought that made it clearer. And it would have, if this case wasn't an exception, an appeal that isn't on a violation.

So, the discrepancy is one of ASA's editorial committee's making, not an intentional rule. Just unfortunate wordsmithing, it would appear. Personally, I also don't like "may not" versus "does not" that the others use. I don't want to have to rule on a protest claiming that an umpire that did inadvertantly (and obviously incorrectly) let on about a violation put the offense in jeopardy, and have to disallow a valid appeal. "Does not" if done is a mistake; "may not" if done is a violation of the rule.

Great input everyone. Thanks!

I'm positive I read this interpretation several years back, especially the part I have quoted above. (And, no, it was no it was not talking about BR running from F3, but specifically noted F3 not moving.)

The part I'm not positive about is how many years, which manual/magazine and whether it was SP, FP or even baseball. I'm pretty sure it was some place that I at least thought at the time was an authoritative source. Thanks for straighten me out.

Good discussion here.

What the group is saying is that:
1) A live ball appeal can not be made on the batter-runner while off base in this situation.
2) Also that the defense must force the issue and tag the batter-runner to get an out.

Now explain what is the umpire to do, if anything, when F3 stands on 1st base holding the ball, the batter-runner stands where she is (about 30 feet from 1st base), and the 3rd base runner stands off her base. They all stare at each other and no movement.

Stand there and wait for someone to actually make a play.

Anything we do must have the support of the rules. And, there is no rule support to do anything with this play. Until the players play this to a completion, live ball, play is in progress.

1) Runner is not out, because nothing makes the runner out.
2) You cannot properly call "time"; ASA 10.4-E "An umpire will not call time while any play is in progress ..." and ASA 10.4-H An umpire will not suspend play at the request of players, coaches or managers until all action in progress has been completed."

The most you can do is state something like "The ball is live until returned to the pitcher and runners return to their bases", or "I cannot call that runner out unless you tag her off the base", or "I cannot grant time will the ball is in play and runners are in jeopardy". Until they resolve it, you cannot actively "do" anything, or apply any rule.

Good breakdown, Steve. But let's take it a step further. Define play. In ASA, F3 standing on a base with a ball while the runner in question is between 1st & 2nd base is not a play until the defense actually tries to retire the runner. IMO, erroneously touching a base in this case is not a play. So, at this point we don't have a play of any type upon which the umpire may or may not make a decision.

Which is easily resolved in SP (and could be in FP) when the umpire kills the ball when there is no obvious further play. :D

I don't think I've ever had this situation, however in similar situations (in FP), I have said something like, "Let's play ball" in my most officious umpire voice. Next thing I know they are doing something.

However, gotta be real slow pulling that trigger. Told this before, AA State game, high infield fly, infield fly rule invoked and declared, ball lost in the sun, ball drops in front of second baseman. Runner on first and second base both under the misconception that IF means dead ball and are in conversation 20 feet from the bag. Plate looks at me and I him with the "can't realy call time just yet look but they are too dumb to know it" finally from the outfield "TAG HIM". "OUT!" Then came the arguments. AA indeed, in both usages of the term.

However, gotta be real slow pulling that trigger. Told this before, AA State game, high infield fly, infield fly rule invoked and declared, ball lost in the sun, ball drops in front of second baseman. Runner on first and second base both under the misconception that IF means dead ball and are in conversation 20 feet from the bag. Plate looks at me and I him with the "can't realy call time just yet look but they are too dumb to know it" finally from the outfield "TAG HIM". "OUT!" Then came the arguments. AA indeed, in both usages of the term.

Damn I want to jump in the middle of this.

Damitol!!!! My blood pressure is goin up! Help!!!

OK. Here goes.
Strictly speaking ASA, right?
This play became a situation that damn near completely stopped a Western National within the last, ummm, decade. Apparently the folks in charge had never even heard of this play, much less seen it.

We have been blessed with it for years around here. It is an offshoot of what used to be called the "U Dub play," as in Teresa Wilson. That particular play is now forbidden by rule, but this is it's first cousin. And it's legal. And there's not a whole lot you can do.

Again, strictly speaking ASA -- so you over there reading this, settle down lol...and not Seattle ASA either.

At this particular tournament we were instructed that when the runner stopped and no one was going to do anything to stop play and order the runner back to first. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, but this is what was done in the rest of this particular tournament.

I'll admit it's a VERY good thing this play didn't come up in any games I did the rest of that tournament. I wouldn't have followed along, I can guarantee. Heck, they wanted to send me home anyway :)

I keep hearing little rumblings that it's going to be outlawed, but what's to be outlawed? Runners can't stop? An offensive team can't do something to try to force the defense into an error? What's to follow? Bans on sacrifice bunts down the 3B line? Slappers?

No, you can't call time.

Unless the UIC says you HAVE to.

Just wondering, since I'm not in the "U dub" loop, what play would that be?

Appeal a turn toward second
 

:confused:We have a lot of solutions for many different solutions. As I see it with NFHS rules, there are 2 possible solutions.
1. The runner must be tagged to record an out. This may create a rundown, that will establish her base path "ONLY" when an attempt is made to tag her. If there are multiple throws to tag the batter/runner B2, she creates a new base line with each throw, so the 6' base path can change with each throw. It is not always a direct line between 1B & 2B.
2. throw the ball to the pitcher and force the runners to go directly to a base LBR in force. I would rather give up 2nd base than a run. ;)

Steve - It's NOT up to us to "coach" the players. Example: (ASA SP)I had R1 on 1st, no outs. Fly ball to right field. R1 comes off the base 5 FEET as the ball is in-flight (and I had him lined up with the RFer). The ball is caught by RF and R1 advances to 2nd without tagging up. Now, I'm THINKING "appeal play." The ball is thrown to an infielder and I DELAYED calling "time." The 3rd baseman says: "Blue, he left the base too soon." I say nothing. The ball is then thrown to the pitcher. It is now obvious to me NO appeal play is forthcoming. So now I call "time." I go back behind HP, the next batter comes up and I signal/call "play ball." The defense never repeated the appeal. Had they simply STATED the appeal during the "dead ball" period, I would have ruled the runner out. And, was I ever ready to ring him up.

IMO, that may have been over-officious and missed the play. If all play was apparently completed, which means R1 is not showing any indication of advancing to the next or previous base and the defense wasn't attempting to make a live ball appeal, you probably should have called time and accepted the appeal.

Don't know why you would delay calling time if nothing was imminent.

BTW, the ball is not dead when a pitch hits the ground in all SP.

Delay in calling "time....."
 

Irish - How can that be "over officious?" I delayed calling "time" for TWO reasons:
1. To give the runner the OPPORTUNITY to retouch 1st
2. To give the defense an OPPORTUNITY to make a live ball appeal.
Had I called "time" immediately, by rule, he cannot retouch. Once I saw he was NOT going to retouch and that and that the defense was NOT going to make an appeal, THEN I called "time."
And, the proper mechanic is to call "time" THEN they state the appeal.
In REGULAR SP, yes, the ball is "dead" once a pitch hits the ground. Which is why a batter CANNOT hit a pitched ball once the ball hits the ground.
Got that, Sparky?

Because you emphasized "DELAYED", I'm assuming you waited longer than you normally would have had you not anticipated an appeal.

When all immediate play is complete, the umpire should call time (10.4.I). You seem to have changed your mechanic to accommodate an anticipated appeal. The statement that "he cannot touch" just isn't true. Runners are NOT locked to a position just because you call time. For that matter, you must give them the opportunity to complete all running responsibilities and if that is to return and retouch the base left too soon, so be it (RS 1.C)

There is nothing the umpire can do that would prevent a runner from retouching or the defense from making an appeal.

No, that would be only with SP without stealing.

No, a batter cannot bat a pitched ball in SP once it hits ANYTHING other than the bat because the rule says he cannot.

Just to interject, so this doesn't become "he said, he said."

Nothing should be done differently when an appeal might be considered possible than when you don't see one; delaying calling time, or anything else done differently, could be considered as tipping off the defense that an appeal would be appropriate.

It has been some time since calling time stopped a runner from completing running responsibilities. If actively moving, of course don't call time (to stop a live ball appeal). Once time is called, we allow runners to complete anything they initiate before accepting an appeal. Sounds like if you waited, Steve, the runner would have done nothing; then you allow the appeal.

I just don't know what "regular SP" is, comprted to general slow pitch rules. In Mens' (the vast majority of SP in my universe), and now Womens' (but not Coed, Senior, or JO), runners can steal on pitches that hit the ground, so long as it passes the front plane of the plate, but don't hit the plate. That isn't dead; it's live by any definition that I know about.

Stevetheump; just an observation here. You claim a lot of experience, but you're the newbie here. You may well have a great deal to offer, with your experience, but your approach might be better received if you took a softer approach. Many here have a lot of experience, solid credentials, and have built credibility with other posters. Act like the newbie, build your rep, and you will earn credibility based on your postings, not because you demand it. Just like you have to earn it on the field.

Drop back, study us, see what we offer. Challenge what is gray, but give respect to those that have earned it when you may not fully see it that way. Some here not only have the experience, but serve on the rules committees, hold ASA (and other) positions in our states, have direct access to the rules makers and interpretors, and more. I'm not suggesting you can't interact; but your approach with some that have greater knowledge isn't helping your credibility.

JMO. Do as you will.

To add (had enough on my mind in the previous post):

Calling any ASA State UIC "Sparky", even if you were right in your position (and you were dead wrong in that case) would get you relegated to dogsh!t assignments without any future in most places. And, based on what you have posted, this is the State UIC in a neighboring state within the same Region, who has direct and personal access to your State UIC. Hardly sounds like a well thought out plan.

Politics..............
 

SHEESH !!

So, with that, I take my leave of you. :rolleyes:

That is true, you don't know who I am and I wouldn't expect you to act in any other manner than as yourself.

Nothing wrong with that, though it is nice when an umpire has a goal a little higher than present.

Amazing how little you actually know about the folks on this board. If anything, we are each others toughest critics which is a common occurence among any group of sport officials. In the long run, it makes us all better officials.

Probably wasting my keystrokes.....

Steve - AtlUmpSteve gave you some good advice;

When I enter a new group of people that I don't know or haven't met, I try to lay back a bit to get a feel for the group, who the strong personalities are, etc. Then I try to integrate myself to the group gently....much the same advice that Steve gave you.

Coming in like you did may give the wrong impression about you to the group. As Steve said...you may have a great deal of knowledge and experience to offer...give us a chance to get to know you. As it is now, your posting attitude and style has turned some people off and they probably won't even pay attention to your posts.....

If you decide to leave, oh well, nothing we can do about that...I hope you don't 'cause its always good to have more experience and knowledge around here. Just try to fit in...who knows, you might like it!

Good riddance. And I'm glad I don't have to go on the field with you.

That Mike is a state UIC is actually irrelevant. What matters is that he backs it up with articualte arguments backed by the rules. If you had bothered to observe more, you would have noticed that in time.

As for myself, the best thing I did around here was decide to post less and read more. But you didn't come here to read.

I mostly agree with that; what brought that on was the "Sparky" pejorative. That's past the point of a rules or mechanics discussion disagreement, it's also a point of disrespect to the position that person holds.

im glad i just observe and dont get involved unless i feel my opinion will HELP...LOL See you in Colorado at fireworks steve?

DJ

Unless something changes, I plan to be there, DJ.

*blink blink* Another Wisconsin ump? Originally from Milwaukee here. :)

Feel free to participate in the discussions anytime! We don't bite.

I am a noob, and wish to comment...

if players are standing around confused and the ball is still live, as an umpire, I think it would be advisable to loudly announce, "the ball is still LIVE", without any stoppage of play.

I believe the smartest player on the field would react to force a play, or yell to other players to make a play, or a coach would yell out for players to make a play.

like calling "time, or dead ball" to announce stoppage of play, simply alerting players and coaches as to the status of play neither instructs any player on how to make a play, or denies them the ability to choose their play.

Welcome, shagpal!

I believe the bold section is the most likely scenario: someone will notice that I'm not walking (ahem... hustling) back to my pre-pitch position.

I'd advise against announcing "the ball is live" for two reasons. One, it could be perceived as coaching. If they get the out, the base coach is gonna have a cow because, "you gave the defense a heads up!" If they don't get the out, the defensive coach is gonna have a fit because, "you gave the runner a heads up!" Either way, you're screwed.

Two, anytime we say anything, we run the risk of causing players (particularly runners) to stop. That being said, see number one above. :)

Just out of curiosity, to which play are you commenting, the OP or the alternative STU offered concerning a delayed killing of the ball?

the OP.

they'll blame you anyways dave. they'll accuse you made googly eye gestures or just freezing. ;)

one time, on a live ball appeal, my partner accused me of poker face after the game. pathetic sportsmanship happens, there's no escaping it, my reaction and answer was, so what am I thinking now? :D

I don't wanna get sucked into these forum spats. I'm a noob.

I'm with Dave. The ball is in play. If there is confusion, that is the coach's issue with the players.

If they were that smart, there would be no point of your concern.

Sorry, still with Dave. And pretty sure this would apply to rule sets. Umpires are directed to make particular calls and signals as specific times. What you are suggesting is not one of them

AAMOF, I have seen players stop dead in their tracks when umpires have used local, very local mechanics by calling "good ball" or "play it" on a base hit at a tournament with teams from outside the area. Umpires did not know any better because they were more than happy sticking with whatever got them through the leagues.

okay then, how about, SAFE! improper appeal.

if you do nothing, freeze, put your hands in your pockets, make eye gestures, scratch your nose, readjust your hat, they will still blame you, because doing nothing might also be construed as a signal.

if your wife asks you, "honey, does this dress make me look fat?" if you say nothing, you are sleeping on the couch anyways.

nothing doesn't always mean nothing.

If it is an improper appeal, how is their a call to make?

And if a meteor lands on the field, do you call time? Is a runner between bases advanced to the next base or return to the last touched?

How about umpiring in the manner as the respective sanctioning body instructs their umpire's to work? Or you can just continue to justify something that isn't correct. Whatever.

as I understand it, this appeal is a live ball appeal that requires the runner to be tagged out, IF the defense wants to appeal properly. the OP describes an improper way of appealing that play. the runner is assumed safe until a proper appeal is made.

doing nothing isn't calling TIME, it's doing "not a thing", ball remains live. but doing nothing doesn't always mean nothing when you are requested for a response, which is what a live ball appeal is, a request. when an appeal is requested, you are expected to do something, respond. the longer you do nothing, the more you are communicating "something" anyways. there's almost no way out of that conundrum.

you are arguing doing nothing is better than doing anything at all. I am saying, it doesn't matter as long as what you do or say assists neither side. a null response of "ball is LIVE" would then be as good as nothing, but at least you responded w/ something, which is expected, and as good and about as useful to either side as nothing.

I can't comment about hypothetical meteors. I don't have a clue about those in this context.

Hijacking this:
I know you meant this somewhat flippantly but it got me thinking about unusual interruptions and made me realize I'm not sure what to do if I ever have one. Suppose that something happens, a meteor is fairly unlikely, but someone running out on the field (or more likely in Seattle, a dog), or something like that which messed with a live ball. Maybe it'd be a ball fouled from another field at a tournament.

Should I leave the ball live or kill it and make a best guess at what would have happened? My inclination is that as long as the obstruction can be ignored wait until things settle down; if it actually gets in the way than kill it and straighten it out. In no case would it ever be appropriate to nullify a play, have to respond to what happened, but no pitch could conceivably be declared. Does that all sound right?
________
Paxil Settlement Update

As long as the nuisance is not affecting the play or the players ability to execute a play, leave it alone. If you are forced to stop play, the rule of thumb is that you place the runner on the base to which they were closest when you/partner killed the play.

A little common sense also need to be applied here. If a runner is heading toward base the defender is standing there with the ball and/or in your judgment, the runner would most likely be out, do not award that base to that runner UNLESS forced to do so due to the base behind him/her is already occupied.

And all I am saying is that as the official contracted to provide a service you do so in accordance with the provisions and direction of the rules and manuals of the sanctioning body under which the game is being played.

your comment was previously noted already. I do not know where in the rulebook or umpires manual that says that ignoring an appeal when requested is permissible. the discussion issue is what is an umpire's duty when the appeal is made as the OP described.

from the thread responses, you seem to maintain that doing nothing is not only acceptable, but is the only proper thing to do. I am not saying that it's not something you couldn't do. I am suggesting that doing nothing might be a cop out, and it could or might even be wrong. but I am working off the premise that when team asks an umpire in an appeal situation to rule, as in this instance, an umpire is obligated to respond and rule w/in a finite duration as prescribed in the umpire's manual.

when requested, the umpire has 4 possible responses, do NOTHING, call TIME, call OUT, call SAFE. when confronted with an appeal situation as OP described, does an umpire have all the elements to call OUT? is the umpire permitted to do and say NOTHING? if you call TIME, are you looking for a new job?

lets say for argument's sake an umpire rules SAFE at 1B on the OP's appeal situation. ball is still LIVE regardless. the D could still throw the ball back into the circle, or still run down and tag that runner, and if they do, it's still a live ball appeal. an initial ruling does not preclude further follow up appeal in NFHS. in ASA, not sure, I think you only get one.

since I am here to discuss, not to name call, and since you volunteered to help comment, please by all means, make the call.

I understand your dilemma. We as umps do coach, during the pregame for example when we remind players that there will be do hitting above the belt (ie slide, give up, go around). During the game, during a live ball, we can only call according to the rules. Eventually, no matter what, play will continue but we can't coach even if it is to both sides during a play. Even if you have a player acting up you do the coaching during a dead ball.

are you in the "do nothing" camp too? I'm confounded by your reply. no one seems to want to setup up and make the call.

Shagpal,

At least five experienced umpires have given you their point of view. Because none of them agree with you, you keep asking the same question. Over and over. You're repeating yourself. You're being redundant.

Please, accept or reject the advice you've been offered. But let's move on!

no, I came into this discussion late, and read varying view points, and seemed not one of was willing to call SAFE.

all except one voiced that it was necessary to respond somehow, all the others expressed that doing nothing is okay.

the NFHS umpires manual says you gotta give a call.

I'm getting lost here....

How bout if you start at the beginning and state the play and your reaction.

We may have gone so far that we are seeing different situations.

:eek:Brought to you by.................:D

of course, it's the OP, first post of the thread.

I've already stated my position on this is, that doing nothing is not proper. what one could or would do, I suggested it already, and got jumped. I said I didn't wanna get into their squabbles and got jumped anyways. go figure.


http://forum.officiating.com/softbal...tml#post654218

I'm in the do nothing camp. In the OP everyone is standing around. The way I see it there is no call to make yet, so how could the umpire "step up"? There is no appealable play here so there is no call to make.

Also, as the saying goes, "Silence can't be misquoted." It usually applies to a different context but I think remaining silent will keep you out of trouble here as well.

seth, way to step and man up. you didn't get nasty. alot of guys can learn from you.

honestly, my first reaction was to "do nothing" as well, so I am not blaming everyone's initial take. but remembering that every play deserves call, and that in this scenario, the OP is describing players expressly requesting a ruling on an appeal, got me thinking about TEX's point of view. I was appalled to see the reaction of those that seemed to gang mug Tex, because what he posted seemed to have merit, and the replies challenging him seemed empty and to lack merit.

unless there's some case study floating out there to dig up, and I can't know everything published, the ump manuals I have are very explicit on this issue, that an umpire is required to rule when an appeal is requested, and the play the OP described is explicitly appealable. an umpire can ask the appellants what is being appealed, and this is NOT considered coaching.


stat

Out of curiousity, are you an umpire? Or just a ballplayer out of CA? How much training have you experience? Every play deserves a call? Never heard that one because it really isn't so. If a throw is made to retire a runner at 2B and the ball gets by and is rolling in the outfield, do you still come up with a big safe? Ever hear of "no ball, no call"?

Tex misapplied a mechanic to a play that is described as an appeal play that truly is not an appeal play, but simply a live ball still in play where a runner may or may not advance and the defense can only stop the runner by putting them out or throwing the ball out of play. Something I believe we have established here via the rule book. I guess we really don't need a case study then, do we?

No, it doesn't, but besides, no one has made a play here on which to make a call.There is no appeal to rule on, regardless of what the player "requests." The only way to get the runner out is to tag the runner, not tag the base.

OK, here is the OP again.

If BR was tagged out after "she makes an attempt for 2B", that is an out because she has forfeited her exemption on the overrun.

The possibility of the BR advancing toward 2nd eliminates any non-tag appeal at 1st;
and by 8-7-4-c in the LBR, she must "advance non-stop to second base".

R1 at 3rd has no beariing on the ruling.

The OP says "F3 is not expected to chase B2". If so, that could change the outcome. Where is it written?

LBR is not in effect... F3 has the ball.

In the case book ruling on abandoning a base.

This case play does not apply. The runner is not "far away from the baseline", so there is no ruling of abandoning the attempt to reach a base. Besides, this, also, is not an appeal.

Ok coming in late to this party, seems like ya'll got things going pretty good about now. So let me ask you this, on the field I got a runner past first base, and a fielder appearing to make a live ball appeal. In my umpiring mind the only thing I can see is that the fielder is making a live ball appeal of the runner missing first base, or touching the incorrect part of first base. That's the only thing I can think of to rule on an appeal in this situation. So what if we signal safe and say "They touched the base", or something along those lines.

I don't love that idea, but I don't like standing around either, although I have never seen a time where someone didn't do something in a game (I'm a FP guy remember) someone is always gonna throw, tag or run for the most part. But in my offering I ruled on what I thought the fielder was appealing, cause there is nothing else to appeal in the OP so I could see that working too, no coaching but you know I'm not calling anyone out either and if your smart if I didnt' call them out then they are still live to run or be tagged out.

The so-called appeal was not for missing the base:

(mike), if you are gonna throw the book at a fellow umpires, be prepared to have it thrown back at you.

READ the NFHS umpire manual. it is explicit. you are trying to interpret your position, but the rule spells it out explicitly, NOTHING is NOT an option.

I get that but I am questioning how we knew that is what they were appealing for? Did the F3 say "Mr. Umpire I believe that the runner is obligated to 2nd base thus I am appealing that they should be out since they are off the base and I am holding the ball on the base they should have to return to."?? I guess I don't know how to answer an appeal that really isn't an appealable play during a live ball, thus my answer that I interpert the appeal to be a missed base, or wrong base contacted and I ruled on that appeal since that is the only legit appeal that could be made at that time. Again not sure that is what I would do in a game.....but one way to handle it!

Not sure who you are talking to, you quoted Irish, who is Mike. But I will pull my FED book out tonight and look at it in detail and see what it says about ruling on improper live ball appeals. I don't remember covering that section in any of my training.

I was just going by what the OP said...

It's kind of the red-headed stepchild of the four appealable situations listed in the rule book, but the rule is clear it is an appeal play (2-2d). It's just not an appeal in the same mold as the others. It is also unique in that it must be a live ball appeal and it must be accomplished by appying a tag to the runner while she's off the base.

If you accept the premise that this is an appealable play (which might be hard to accept, but it's right there in the rule book), the question becomes: What do we do if we have an appealable play, the defensive player attempts to make the appeal, but the player does not properly execute the appeal?

xactly. it is an appealable play, improperly appealed by the defense. the umpire must rule.

oh, right on. sorry dave,

yes, I was responding to mike (irish), the one throwing the book at anyone who disagrees w/ his position.

umpires can ask if it is unclear what the defense is appealing. umpires should ask the appellant what and which player they are appealing. asking such questions is not coaching. this comes straight outa the CCA umpires manual. seems that not clarifying and not ruling is a cop out. doing nothing would NOT an option.

Exactly, since it is not in the same mold as other appeal plays, the umpire must treat in differently; in fact, exactly the same as tagging a runner off the base. The general instruction for appeals in both the rule book and the umpire manual largely do not apply to this so-called appeal. For example, the rule book merely says this situation is a live ball appeal only, so why isn't tagging the base a proper appeal? Well, because 8-6-8 says the runner must be tagged.

So what? The OP is a Fed situation.

oh! I didn't pick up on that. but, I agree, so what?

He is not the first to miss that in this topic. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
...by 8-7-4-c in the LBR, she must "advance non-stop to second base".

LBR is not in effect... F3 has the ball.

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
"F3 is not expected to chase B2". If so, that could change the outcome. Where is it written?

In the case book ruling on abandoning a base.
I didn't check 8-6, so didn't see that, but it does not seem abandoning to me.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
ABANDONING A BASE
8.6.22 SITUATION A: B1 reaches first safely. In her overrun, she breaks for second and then "gives up" far away from the baseline. RULING: If B1 is attempting to reach a base, she must be tagged out, but the fielder is not expected to chase her into the outfield. In the outlined case, B1 is out for giving up. (8-4-2; 8-6-2)

This case play does not apply. The runner is not "far away from the baseline", so there is no ruling of abandoning the attempt to reach a base.
Agree, does not apply, so doesn't that mean the fielder has to apply a tag, chasing if needed.

------------------------------------------------------------
Besides, this, also, is not an appeal.
It is a live ball appeal if the fielder does apply a tag before the runner reaches a base.

To finish my comments:
- no ruling, wait for players to do something legitimate
- please type replies after the quotes to make it easier for all to follow

I can only repeat, this appears to me to fully comply with an appealable play that is improperly appealed by the defense. umpire is obligated to make a call. the umpire's manual is explicit on this, that no ruling is not an option.

Please provide references to which umpire manuals you quote (ASA, NFHS, CAA) and page numbers. That will help strengthen your argument.

And like Cecil already stated, please type your response after you quote someone, not before.

2010-2011 NFHS umpires manual, p12 re:appeals. just read it. everyone should have one.

Having now read and studied this thread, if faced with the OP, I would give a quick, waist-level safe mechanic, and maybe say "safe". Some response to an apparent appeal is called for, although not required. Sort of like the 'that's-nothing' quick safe mechanic used when a possible interference or obstruction occurs that is neither. I think saying "improper appeal' in this instance would be slightly coaching.

AltUmpSteve got it right in post #14. I am surprised to learn that softball (Fed and ASA, at least) considers this an appeal play. I would have thought it would be a garden-variety tag-off-the-base play (8-6-2), the BR having lost the overrun protection by not returning directly to first base, a la 8-8-9. (Baseball treats it that way for attempts to advance to second after overrunning first; OBR 7.08(j), Fed 8-4-2-p)

For instance, if F3 somehow accidentally tagged BR off the base, I would still have an out. Right?

We all seemed to get caught up in the out call in the OP which is wrong and the confusion about chasing on abandonment and a few tangents to missing the base and the LBR.

Now that I think some more, the action "F3 while holding the ball steps on 1B and appeals that F3 has made an attempt for second" deserves a response. A safe signal and verbal would be appropriate because the fielder is asking for a ruling.

paul, you might be misinterpreting my reply to mike (irish). announcing "improper appeal" is not advisable when the ball is live. but given the scenario, you will most certainly be asked to explain your call when the ball becomes dead or after LBR. you will be asked to explain that the appeal attempt was improper, and a tag on the runner is required.

announcing "ball is live" is unnecessary. but when the live appeal is made, other players, and even coaches may confuse the state of play, and confuse the live appeal for a dead ball appeal. if a subsequent live appeal tag is attempted after the initial appeal call, the umpire might possibly be at the end of blame for any confusion for not clarifying the state of play.

Dave,

The counter argument is, "Mr. Umpire, am I prohibited from attempting to advance? If not, and I have already met the requirement to touch 1B prior to being put out, what is there to appeal? I simply attempted to advance to 2B and changed my mind. Is there a rule prohibiting a runner from changing their mind while someone is holding the ball other than the pitcher within the confines of the circle? Again, Mr. Umpire, what is there to appeal?"

Under the supposition that this may be a legitimate appeal, a runner who rounded 1B toward 2B could be retired simply by throwing the ball to a defender touching 1B and saying, "Mr. Umpire, I am appealing the runner attempting to advance to 2B". I would love to see any umpire rule the out on appeal as the runner is strolling safely into 2B.

You can take all the garbage that has been piled on this, but when it comes down to it, the "appeal" presented in the OP was not a legitimate appeal and there is nothing on which to rule.

Yeah, that is a conundrum I noticed when I first read the play. If you want to tag the runner, you are going to have to go after him/her.

I doubt, though not impossible especially with AA, that the runner is going to say, "oh, you want to tag me? hang on, I'll be right there!" ;)

Extending the premise
 

Does that mean any improperly presented appeal does not get a ruling?

Does that mean any erroneous appeal is ignored?

No, that isn't what I said, was it? However, define what you mean.

Could be, but not necessarily. As the umpire, I'm staying with the live ball and putting myself in the proper position for the most likely play. Again, define erroneous appeal. Do you mean wrong time, wrong base, wrong rule, etc.?

Well, sure, if DHC (defensive head coach) asks for an explanation, I'll call time after relaxed action, and explain anything in as few words as possible.

Knowing the vitality of the ball is the players' responsibility, assisted by their coaches, and is part of the game. Volunteering whether the ball is live is not my job. If you do, then you would be to blame for coaching. Let players make dumb moves.