intentionally dropped ball

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

if its 1st and 2nd 0 out, and a soft liner hit to SS, who bats it down/never closes their glove ...

Batter should know not to do that when it's 1st and 2nd 0 outs.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by greymule

I once called an IDB on a shortstop only to have the defense argue, "He [F6] isn't good enough to intentionally drop a ball!"

ive heard that said a fair amount of the time, but it doesnt change the effect of the spirit of the rule, which, just as the IFF, is to prevent the defense from turning a double or triple play on a ball that the rule writers believe should only result in 1 out.

on a side note, i just got home from a game and mentioned the RS to the ASA ump and he said all the ASA umps he knows of, which im assuming is a large #, all call the play the same way as its written in the MLB rules, not the ASA rules. meaning if he, or the other umps he knows, see an IF guide the ball to the ground, they will call IDB.

[BretMan]

I find it hard to believe that he has: Discussed this very play with "every umpire he knows", and; That to a man they have all decided to ignore the written rules of the sanctioning body they're working for and just make up their own interpretation.

Maybe he only knows, like, two or three umpires!

That's strange. Did he bother to explain why he and every umpire he knows does this?

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I find it hard to believe that he has: Discussed this very play with "every umpire he knows", and; That to a man they have all decided to ignore the written rules of the sanctioning body they're working for and just make up their own interpretation.

Maybe he only knows, like, two or three umpires!

That's strange. Did he bother to explain why he and every umpire he knows does this?

i cant remember his exact reasoning, but he said something to the effect that if a SS guided a ball to the ground hed not only kill the play but give the player a warning for deception. this ump has been working for ~20 years and made it seem like it was pretty standard operating procedure in the boston area for slow pitch. Ive been playing softball in boston area for about 3 years (~75-100 games/per) and never seen it called the "ASA way".

as i alluded to in my OP, a few months ago, i was playing SS, 1st and 2nd 0 outs, a soft liner to my left, i guided the ball to the ground, tagged R2, stepped on 2nd and was in the process of throwing to 1st when the ump ruled IDB.

I had always been under the impression that the ASA rule was the same as MLB, so i only try it if its a new ump to "test" his rule knowledge (and bc its a bush league play). when he called IDB, i actually thought to myself this guy aint half bad and even told him nice call in between innings. now i guess i can add that to the list of times ive been screwed over by an ump....(sarcasm)

[greymule]

A warning for deception?

Where does this idea come from? I knew ASA umpires in NJ who called illegal pitches for "intent to deceive" and refused to call illegal pitches if "there was no intent to deceive."

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by greymule

A warning for deception?

Where does this idea come from? I knew ASA umpires in NJ who called illegal pitches for "intent to deceive" and refused to call illegal pitches if "there was no intent to deceive."

no idea....

i personally think the ASA rule is dumb bc it flies in the face of the intent of the rule. its basically tantamount to saying the IFer must catch the ball in order for IFF to be invoked.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

no idea....

i personally think the ASA rule is dumb bc it flies in the face of the intent of the rule. its basically tantamount to saying the IFer must catch the ball in order for IFF to be invoked.

Um, how? The rule is completely separate from IFF. For IFF, you must have runners on at least 1st and 2nd. For IDB, you only need at least a runner on 1B. Also, the IFF rule takes precedence over IDB.

So how is it "tantamount" to requiring a catch for IFF?

[referee99]

I had the 1st and 2nd no one out. ASA slowpitch I'm PU. Low liner to short, no catch, guide to ground. Step on 2nd throw to first for double play.
I signal ball is down and give safe signal. Every other person on the field and within earshot thought I got it wrong and was a complete numbskull.

Partner BU is giving a not-so-subtle out signal on the initial contact with the glove, which all of the players saw. I go to him and say I didn't see a catch, and if we were going IDB he has to have control which he did not. Partner shrugs and says, "its your clal, but I think he's out and dead ball"

What a frikkin' lonely feeling. I really had 2nd thoughts, but had recently read up here (thanks a heck of a lot!) and knew I had the call right for ASA.

What was shocking is how no one else shared my opinion.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by greymule

A warning for deception?

Where does this idea come from? I knew ASA umpires in NJ who called illegal pitches for "intent to deceive" and refused to call illegal pitches if "there was no intent to deceive."

Sounds like some umpires took a bad practice from baseball and applied it to softball.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Um, how? The rule is completely separate from IFF. For IFF, you must have runners on at least 1st and 2nd. For IDB, you only need at least a runner on 1B. Also, the IFF rule takes precedence over IDB.

So how is it "tantamount" to requiring a catch for IFF?

really?? can you not figure that one out for yourself?

whats the reasoning behind the IFF rule? its so, when runners on base, the defense cant turn a play, when the runners would be damned if they do, damned if they dont, into 2 or 3 "cheap" outs. I wont explain further bc Im assuming, as an umpire, you understand game a little about strategy.

now, regardless of what ASA's definition of "intentionally dropped" is, whats the reasoning behind the IDB rule? its so, when runner(s) on base, the defense cant turn a play, when the runners would be damned if they do, damned if they dont, into 2 or 3 "cheap" outs.

bc ASA has a very narrow definition of what "intentionally dropped" is, i was alluded to the fact that is it very similar as if the IFF rule was very narrowly defined. seeing as how in all my years playing baseball and softball, ive never seen an IF physically catch the ball, then drop it, in order to try and pull off an IDB situation, ive only seen IFers guide the ball to the ground, or not close their glove on the ball.

i really dont see how what i said was that hard to understand or to believe. i also understand that its your job as an ump to regulate the game as prescribed but that doesnt mean you have to blindly agree with every rule and fail to understand a bad rule's "hypocrisy"

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Um, how? The rule is completely separate from IFF. For IFF, you must have runners on at least 1st and 2nd. For IDB, you only need at least a runner on 1B. Also, the IFF rule takes precedence over IDB.

So how is it "tantamount" to requiring a catch for IFF?

i should have included this in my last post, but an additional one will suffice.

you do realize why there is a difference in the runner requirement for the IFF and IDB rules right?

on an IFF, the runner has time to run out a dropped ball, thus only requiring a runner on 1st is unnecessary bc theoretically, the D could only turn a dropped by into 1 out.

on an IDB, the runner does not have time to run out a dropped by, thus a runner on 1st is required to prevent the D from not turning 1 play into 2 outs, when the runner "cant" run on contact.

but then again, i figured someone of your softball knowledge already knew that

[Igotthetag]

I can tell you that the "clinic" for City of Tampa umpires says that there is no thing as guiding the ball to the ground, call it IDB. That information has been promulgated annually for at least the past 10 years that I am aware. When asked the City UIC said that the ASA director told him that that was the way it was meant to be called, so there.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Igotthetag

I can tell you that the "clinic" for City of Tampa umpires says that there is no thing as guiding the ball to the ground, call it IDB.

The clinicians are wrong (for ASA).

Originally Posted by Igotthetag

That information has been promulgated annually for at least the past 10 years that I am aware. When asked the City UIC said that the ASA director told him that that was the way it was meant to be called, so there.

They are both wrong, too (for ASA)!

[Igotthetag]

I know that they had it wrong because I read the manual, but I will guarantee that it is not unusual to hear that Tampa, Florida is not isolated in their interpretation and training. I don't umpire as much as I used to as I am an administrator for a senior softball association and we hold tournaments across the state and I have included this situation in our umpire meetings and have received similar responses across the board. I know how we call this one, because of a certain amount of enlightenment, how do we get the ASA people to call it correctly.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Igotthetag

I know that they had it wrong because I read the manual, but I will guarantee that it is not unusual to hear that Tampa, Florida is not isolated in their interpretation and training. I don't umpire as much as I used to as I am an administrator for a senior softball association and we hold tournaments across the state and I have included this situation in our umpire meetings and have received similar responses across the board. I know how we call this one, because of a certain amount of enlightenment, how do we get the ASA people to call it correctly.

Protest the game.