Many coaches believe the rules are secretly "buried" in the rule book. That particular rule is buried WAY deep. Way down on page 32.

Yeh..you might be right...

but if you don't make your customer aware...and it changes from year to year...

they go elsewhere??

Go figure!!

Yep.. some truth to that. I think a coaches committee is exactly what is needed so that these types of issues can be addressed. It may not solve issues for all the teams, but the ultimate goal is to move forward with ASA.

Ain't that the truth?!

And do you know why?

Are you really as full of **** as your posts?

When anything changes in the rule book, it is highlighted, put in bold print, noted in a separate section in the front of the rule book and posted on the web site a month before the rule book goes to print.

Not to mention that changes are reported almost within minutes of approval in November.

Now, if after all that there is anyone involved in the game that claims they are "uninformed" or "unaware", I don't think they should be allowed near any children.

Listen and read carefully....it is sometimes beneficial...more so than vulgarity...was that an attempt to add emphasis?? Make yourself HEARD!!!!!!

Fences are to be 200 min to 225 max. The Gold coaches played all summer on 200 foot fences...including qualifiers and last years Gold tournament. They show up this year and the fences are 225...without any consultation or prior notification...not even a bold print....highlight...posting on a website...or note in a separate section of the book...but a significant CHANGE from their previous events!!
Kinda like the fine print at the bottom of an advertisement... that frustrates us and changes the whole value of a product?

But this is just one example of the customers frustration...there are several more as has been discussed and documented.....

The bottom line is that these frustrations are real with these patrons regardless of what you THINK... and they got mad as hell and aren't gonna take it anymore!!

I am just a messenger Mike....and have been called worse than "full of **** " by more significant men (and women) than you....and thats OK...sometimes it is accurate!!

Thats why I like my dog....he doesn't call me names...and wags his tail when he see's me....He still pisses and craps on the porch though..when left out in the cold or dark!! But I still like him.

By the way...have you ever rode a horse?

Vulgarity is all in the recipient's mind so you might want to get it out of the gutter.

So what? It is posted and part of the rules, THERE IS YOUR NOTIFICATION! CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? I'm sure you can, but it isn't something you want to hear because it doesn't fit well with your whine. It is this simple, the coaches and players agreed to that fence distance before they even started the season and ASA has that agreement in writing.

The "frustrations" are self-inflicted. All the information is out there well in advance. There is no excuse for any surprises other than one's laziness or ignorance. I've run into people like this all my life. They cannot get their way, so they take the bat and ball and go home.Yet, you accuse me of something I did not do. I simply asked if you were as full of **** as your posts. Any conclusion is yours, not mine.:D

Yeah, I like my goldens, also. Of course, I don't leave them out in the cold and dark and they relieve themselves where trained to do so. And they are always happy and always happy to do a little extra work.

This should be a good one. Yes, I have ridden a horse.

That is, at best, only partly true. I know for a fact that some Gold Qualifiers THIS YEAR were played at 225'; fact, the Eastern Territory Qualifier played in Marietta was played at 225'. All games, all 10 fields used, all set with temporary fences at 225'.

To the best of my knowledge and information, the National Qualifier held in OKC, also held at the HOF Complex, was also played at 225'. Yep, the same fencing at the same complex, just a few weeks earlier. So, couldn't it equally be said that the teams/complexes/TD's that played at 200', the minimum, were wrong??

So, if they moved the fences to the 200' that you claim ALL qualifiers all summer long, wouldn't the teams that played at 225' have the exact same complaint, that the fences were moved from where they played their qualifier??

The rule allows a range of legal distances, to allow more fields with fixed fences to meet the requirements. Why is that so difficult?

It's not difficult; in fact, it is convenient. It allows one more thing to be added to the list of grievances used to add up to an inflated sense of being wronged.

Boil it down and all I've read in this thread for the reasons come pretty close to "I'm not in charge and Cali is not being paid proper homage by being made to travel to God-forsaken Oklahoma."

Nonetheless, the organizers of the Gold National should pay attention because there might actually be things in there they could improve... such as using more fields to shorten the tournament.

I agree it definately rings of a Cali power move. So many east coast teams jumping on board though...

So thats why we need the coaches committee to make sure Ca does not barrell over the east coast in terms of whats beneficial to ASA as a whole. There may come a point when these teams just simply get let go and ASA move forward. What SoCal wants may not be best nationwide.

if there were ONLY ca teams on the list, my answer would be "let them go and rot". I have a lot of dealings with CA coaches and I know exactly how many are. One of the striking things of working in Georgia was being called "sir". I dont think CA coaches even know that word and I dont think I'd ever been called that by a coach before going to Georgia. Thats a indicitive of attitude and manners. Its much more than that, but you get the point.

Its not just CA teams though.. its most of the top from all the states..

you should go debunk them.. you know all this stuff.. and they get away with their talking apoints because noone else knows the truth or will post it.

8 fields were used for two day (well, day and a half) pool play. All double elimination (which started on Tuesday) was played on four fields.

I worked the same exact tournament on an 8 field complex in 2002 (ironically in OK, but not OKC), I believe my tournament was one day shorter. Anyone want to take a guess who won that year?

And yes, it was hot, and we had rain, and it was hot.

Allow me to speculate for a minute, I bet, somewhere in the JO committee minutes, coaches complained about the tournament being too compact.

Sometimes you can't give everybody what you want.

Thats what I thought!!!:)

OK....your right and all the gold teams and coaches are whiners and full of crap!!

And as a result teams from Virginia to New Jersey to Texas to Florida to Washington to California are leaving OKC and taking their balls and bats and going to California to play!!

And that is fine, but why is it these folks refuse to address the true issue that is at the core of this?

You talk about ASA not listening, the customer doesn't want to talk. They just want everyone to accommodate their self-serving plans and screw everyone else including the association's mission.

I for one would love to know why these teams are bailing on the championship to go play some lame so cal friendly.. and it is ALL the top teams.
You guys (steve and mike) seem up to speed on the ins and outs/politics much more than me ... but something definately smells fishy in denmark.


It just cant be fences and $100 fees to freakin Div 1 & 2 college programs. Thats the most retarded thing i've ever heard.

The money and expense of OKC is about the only legit thing I 've heard. Thats a real deal.
College players is a thorn in the paw.
These two things are enabling gary and IMO need to be fixed...but there has to be more.

But if someone could tell me without their lame bs talking points how the hell they got all those top programs to go man I'm all ears. (not you luvthegame, I've already read the talking points memo, I dont buy it).

It is all about the scholarship. Playing competitive ball for a national championship with the best players available is not conducive to the promises made to the player's parents.

IMO, these teams would rather "show" their players than play to win a national championship which, like it or not, is part of ASA's mission.

Not a "showcase". There will be a bracket and a championship....a champion crowned from amongst the best youth teams in the nation...so what if it doesn't have the name ASA in it? It's still the best of the best.

All done in 5 days. And probably on TV.

We hope to play all championships on the same day at the Bill Barber Stadium, we have some very promising talks going about these games being televised, at least on a delayed basis. NO FALSE PROMISES, NOTHING IS CERTAIN AS TO TV.

There will be no gate passes nor entrance fees for spectators. College coaches will be fed and informed and not asked to pay for a booklet.

Premier Girls Fastpitch | Information

I guess thats it.
Show case after showcase culminating in a glorified showcase. Sure beats playing competitive ball to earn your way to a championship. I guess easier. A bunch of 1:20 drop dead showcases. Definitely cheaper, which I'm sure is the big motivation. I am competitive by nature so I may not fully grasp this. I never did understand how girls can cheer while losing.

Denial is a ***** especially when others know it.

Of course, it is a showcase. If it wasn't, rosters would be open, but they are not. They are restricted to recruitable players who must PROVE they are in HS or at that level if home schooled.

This is a hs player show case, plain and simple. There is nothing championship about it. Good teams do not make it a championship. Colorado fireworks may be the grandest of all showcases with all the great teams, but its still a showcase.

I would say this most compares to the fireworks, especailly especially with the invitational part... than anything even remotely resembling a championship.

ASA is a championship organization, not a HS player showcase organization.

I agree with irish's assessment and you guys got it mixed up as to the intent.

Mike,

I think that is your best post ever!! That's my laugh for the day.

Thanks

I haven't weighed in on this so far, but I've been following the discussions on here and on the HeyBucket site. What I find most amusing is that on HB they keep referring to the winner of this showcase being a "national champion". What I also find amusing is so far they have made no mention of what rule set they plan to use for the tournament. Even more amusing is that I can imagine all the mommies and daddies licking their chops at the prospect of seeing their DD's on ESPN, in prime time no less, undoubtedly breaking all television ratings to see these "national champions" being crowned.

Finally, while they have mentioned that they would pay umpires twice the going rate to work games in their showcase, I for one, given the choice, would rather have the honor of being chosen to work the Gold. I know that's easy for me to say, knowing the I never will have to make that choice, but hey, it sounds good. :p

How many on here would choose this tournament over "lesser" Gold National, or any ASA Nat for that matter?

More convenient travel options, better weather, better pay, and better ball certainly has it's advantages. Then again there is that honor thing.

Actually, this tournament is a fluid thing and as more and more comes out.. so cal's show case is looking weaker and weaker.. With orgs sending one team to OKC and one team here..

Those coaches know what they are doing. They will be sending the unsigned high schoolers to the so cal show case and OKC will be rockin and rollin next year IMO.

The star pitcher in gold and last years #1 NFHS pitcher right now has one year of gold eligibility left.. but wont be eligible to be in the show case.. wonder where she will be?

If you aint beating her, you aint #1 imo.

How will so cal lay claim to the best if she is in OKC?

This pissin match is getting way to wet...reminds me of the saying "don't wrestle with pigs in the mud...everyone gets muddy but the pigs enjoy it, (not calling anyone a pig) and pretty soon you can't tell either apart!!

IMO, and many others, it is another affiliation holding their own "National Championship" (which is already being done by others).... other people think it is just another showcase....semantics!!

The fact that this affiliation will include the best teams at one (or 3) particular levels playing in an elimination bracket that leads to an eventual champion of the tournament is indisputable. That this tournament wil include teams from all over the nation makes it a "national" tournament? It will eventually include qualifiers...but if you already know that the recognized (based on their finish at Gold this year) best of the best will be competing against each other...those other qualifiers can be developed in a timely manner, and probably will. This is in it's infancy.

This particular affiliation requires a grade specification...other affiliations require age specifications to determine eligibility...so what?? That is their prerogative.

That it is not being held under the authority of a particular affiliation, (no matter what level of loyalty we have to that affiliation...how much we love that affiliation, how important that affiliation has been in our life, what position we hold or have held in that affiliation).... is out of our control!!

As has been noted:

The best teams will be there
The weather will be comfortable
The location will be easily accessable and affordable
The umpire pay reportedly will be substantially better
There will be plenty to do in the area if officials, players, parents and relatives so desire. (although Brick Town was nice)
Many are quite sure the quality of officiating will be outstanding (we will see)
Sponsorship and media exposure will be outstanding
No gate fees for spectators
Reasonable concessions food and prices

Sounds like this could make it very enticing to alot of people...again...IMO!!

I agree there is a lot of fluidity. Lot's of meetings and details to take place.

As you have pointed out...there was less that 1.5 college playerss on teams at Gold last year. And there probably will be several college players in OKC again next year. But IMO the overall best teams will be sent to Premier based only on what the Organizers and Gold coaches are touting.

We will see.


From Premier Organizers:

A couple teams told me they will still send a team to Gold, the Cal teams are not going to do that and I think the others want to compete here with the best HS players they can bring. If Gold becomes completely overrun by college players maybe ASA will look ahead for a change and make Gold for college freshman and sophomores, make 23U for juniors and seniors, combine the tournaments and host that in OKC.

Well, like everything else, it is just a matter of preference and priorities of the individual.

Being a good HS player showcase team and a Championship level ASA Gold team are two different things.

Always has been.

Good luck with your showcase.

I admit, for awhile you guys had me worried about the Gold division in ASA.

Its looking OK by the more recent info to come out.

This is the type of stuff that just continues to support my point of ignorance. These folks continue to try and relate ASA to a player's school year while it is so clear that this is not the case.

I just don't get their situation. Are they just that stupid or arrogant enough to believe if they keep on saying it, more people will believe it to be true?

And, BTW, if the GOLD becomes completely overrun by college players, that should probably produce some damn good softball. Hell, I might go visit my friends on NE 50th just to see some great ball. And those 16-17yo who can hang with them will probably get a good look and good jump on entering college.:D

Lots of outstanding umps do not go to OKC every year. So the actual pool of umps to draw from is there. The questions though, is how they would get there, help with the plane ticket, help from an umps local association.

If not, then the pool is diminished to Cal umps and whoever else is relatively close, I assert. Now are there enough quality ones on that given weekend or are they at nats that same week somewhere. With 20 teams you do not need 40 great ones, only a third of that. Can probably get that.

I heard but may have it mixed up with something else but if so someone will correct the following. Fircracker showcase helps with plane tickets to the tune of 250 bucks. W

He will use only so cal umps. They are a dime a dozen. There are thousands in so cal. Its a non issue IMO. He will call whoever his ASA guy is and just ask for umps and they will send them because there are guys who want to make some bucks and hes paying pretty well.

So cal tourney with so cal umps.

This is interesting...

Gary Haning

Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 24 Re: Information about Premier Fastpitch Girls Softball
Wade,

I will not argue with you further about the tournament.

If you are going to make outlandish statements about the officials, your brethren, maybe you should look before you leap.

At this moment there are 24 men and woman committed to officiate our tournament. All 24 have NCAA DI post-season experience and they are from 11 states. I specifically stated a couple days ago that umpires are very important. Now of course you will say these umpires will not come as with teams.

I am hardly a Messiah, we have no interest nor intent to be the NGB for softball, you can rant and rave and obscure the real discussion by insulting me or the others who are working to make this a success but that probably won't get you your spot at Gold Nationals that you covet and it is just your opinion.


Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:09 am


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ocbxball


Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:36 pm
Posts: 6 Re: Information about Premier Fastpitch Girls Softball

WOW (WADE) Chuck....open mouth...insert foot??

Will you ever have anything useful to offer again??

After all...it's only your reputation and credibility!!

I have heard only 5-6 SoCal Umps out of 32 overall.

They are NATIONAL....and QUALITY!!

I just found it interesting that a fellow "brethern" would cast such disparaging remarks on a fellow group of officials...especially a group reportedly this qualified...but that is just me...an (one) opinion!!

Sweet mother of God...

Wade is a braying jackass....


but listen to him......he may actually be right

and Im smelling troll....


Mr. Troll..There is no "reportedly" to it..if you last long enough, you will know who some of these people are. Looks like you fell into your own trap about disparaging comments....

Really?

Every since I saw forest gump shake hands with JFK, I just dont take everything I see at face value. I'm like Minnesota.... er.. Missouri. :D

I do find it humerous that you AND gary think calling so cal umps so cal umps is degrading.

I guess you belive that he is out running around getting umps assigned 11 months before the event. Thats what he is doing? Flying them in from 11 states.

You know, an umpire couldnt even list this thing on their resume, it means nothing. No one is jumping to do this. Its just a tourney.

Missouri.

It isn't impossible if he lined up someone at an NCAA Coordinator level to promise him 24 umpires with those credentials. He wouldn't know who, or where they are from, but I could name several people in his area that could make that promise. Could probably do it with the Fireworks umpire roster, as a matter of fact. But WN, DC-N, or SE in SoCal could do it, in addition to JV or DN (sorry for the initials, but these people may not want their name associated with this effort; I'm only saying they are well enough placed to make that type of umpire roster happen). There are probably others that I don't know (I'm assuming that the ASA staff would be conflicted out, but add DM, RA, MB, DB, and others).

Who is "no one"? Have any idea who is working it? Probably some who have no need for a resume' or could'NT care less if the letters ASA appear on it.

Show me the roster, Missouri. Until then this statement means nothing.

Edited for those more perfect than me.

:DThats kind of what i was thinking, he lined up an assigner who made some promises. I'm dont care about the officials part of this. If I wasnt working nats I might even be willing to work it. Be a lot of good ball there! :D

Really? How much less could they care?

I edited it for Your Highness. I'm sure you got my point, however.

You show me an umpire who is not competitive with his resume I'll show you an umpire who sucks..

Competition makes for excellence.
IMO...

I must suck then. Where you've been and what you've done are not as important as why you were chosen to be there to do it. An umpire's resume' alone tells me little about his/her ability to call ball. The proof is between the lines and their resume' and their game doesn't always match up.

No, because if you didnt care, you wouldnt meet the requirements, accept it, or go.. so it wouldnt even be on your resume. No one, for example, does a national for the money.

Because you dont make any money.

You wouldnt put out the EXTRA effort required to be seen, the money to go to the extra clinics, you wouldnt try to meet the requirements to be selected to begin with. All you would do is the minimum and cash your check. You care about building your resume and what you do to meet criteria if you are one who goes.. or you wouldnt even be there - because you wouldnt qualify.

I'm not going to presume to know anything about Gary and the inner workings of his organization. I do, however, know that he has one umpire in SoCal that schedules all of the umpires for the Surf City showcases and tournaments. It is not any of the people referred to by initals earlier.

My assumption is that this person would be doing most, if not all, of the scheduling for the Premier.

I'm with Wade...if I'm not working a national at that time, I wouldn't mind working this tournament.

I agree with what you have written here ONLY if the part I underlined is true.

There are many other reasons than just not caring about his craft or looking only for money why an umpire does not pursue building a resume.

I fall into that category.

I've been blueing for 5 years . I've done 2 Nationals, including a Championship game at one of them. At the HS level I've done 2 Sectional Championship games, thats the highest in HS ball you can get in our area. my sectional this year included alot of last years 16U National Champions, lots of schloarships on the diamond that day.

So the powers to be must think I'm competent. I got offered college ball this year and I'm turning it down for 2 reasons. First reason is don't wanna do any extra traveling. The second reason is I'm not the most coach friendly blue in the world and I hear tell that you really need to be coach friendly to do college ball.

This may sound sick but I'd much rather ump 14U then 16's or 18's:eek:.When giving my assignor my schedule I request the 14's and usually get them. I do a good job and most coaches are appreciative of the job I do. The resume builders are all fighting for the 18's and the Gold. I just feel like I'm more engaged,cause more crap breaks out, in 14's then the higher levels. When I'm doing the resume building games there just not as much going on. My experience is those games are pretty routine.:)

So thats my take on the resume building.....

I have been asked to work this tournament. I have accepted.

From what I have seen of the roster, I am excited to be invloved with this gathering. Just as excited as I am to be involved with every game I am allowed to work. But, this time is is with some of the biggest names in the sport.

I will answer all questions, to the best of my abilities

Okay... First question...

Why the angry face? :)

I was kind of wondering that too.. why the mad face?

This is paul from so cal right? Its only your second post so I havent been able to pin down exactly who you are lol.

Youre of course a stud of an umpire! If you are there, they no doubt will have a very good crew and it will be an awesome tourney.

Congrats!

LOL. I have no idea. Must have been a misapplied click. I just saw that myself this morning.

Yes, this is Smokey.

And, he is the SE on my list of people that could put together such a roster. Smokey, can I assume WN and DC-N are also involved?

Good to hear from you, Steve. Your assumption is correct.

Wade, I do not know if I know you or not but, thank you for the kind words, also. Probably just bad judgement on your part, though.

Smokey

It is a cool field to umpire on but most of the players at 18G do not get to play on that field.

And Easton, Wilson and Combat (or whoever sponsors them this week) do not make the hair on anyones neck stand up.

I looks like there alot of very good umpires that have chosen this tournament...knowing this probably terminates any chance of working ASA Nat again. If past actions are any indication...they will effectively excommunicate them from championship play...another process that alienates good umpires from an affiliation.

Oh that is horse hockey.

Just stick to mimicking Gary's talking points and dont do any independent thinking. Jeez.

Welcome aboard Smokey.

Are they working 3 man?

What are they paying?

Will you be able to have fun with that crew?? :eek:

Witnessed over and over .....seen with my own eye's in emails from leadership to some of your UIC's concerning events in competion.

And that's not horse hockey!!

Ask some of your collegiate friends of the threats and pressures!!

I don't mean to be critical of you specifically ....but there is a real world outside our little bubble sometimes.

Oh, youare so full of BS. I've sat in on national selections for 3 years in our area, never heard anything like that. National selections are a very localized thing. Your blanket invented statement is total bunk. Seen with your own eyes "in emails" :rolleyes:

Thats idiotic and shows you were never there.

And tell me this, why are you pretending to be anything but a troll? The last thing you've seen is umpiring issues or selections.

Thanks for the accolades, but seeing how dangerous it is in here, I may crawl back into lurking mode. Before I do that here are a few answers and thoughts:

From what I understand:

Mon/Tue: Two person mechanics.
Wed-Fri: Three person mechanics
Sat (not sure whether it is all Sat or just the finals): Four person mechanics

I have been told that the tournament is paying $50 a game

Have fun with that crew???? It is very seldom that I am able to work with a group of umpires where I am truly the rookie. I cannot believe the names that I am told will be participating.

As far as the ASA discussion going on: I cannot believe that they would have any grievances against umpires that work this tournament or elsewhere. From what I can tell, all of these officials are ASA umpires, yet none of these would be working nationals. For various reasons. Many of them have been there and done that while some of us just aren’t qualified.

Myself, I am ASA registered, but not certified. So, I am ineligible. I would be sitting home that week dreaming of softball. Plus, having the tmnt here allows me the flexibility to be employee, umpire and Daddy all at the same time while stay home for once.

I am not certified simply because I choose to work Div I softball preseason tournaments rather than take a weekend off and attend the mandatory ASA mechanics clinic. I could easily not umpire one weekend in Feb or March and complete my ASA training, but I choose to enhance my family’s income instead. MY decision, not theirs. It is not their fault, it is I who chooses not to play by the rules. I do attend the ASA rules clinic every year and make sure that I am up to date with the current philosophies.

Am I naïve to believe that ASA does not care what umpires do outside of their tournaments? Being independant contractors, don't they understand that we might work for others. If they do complain about this (which I'm sure they wouldn't), do they complain about ASA umpires working in AFA, USSSA, High School, College? Or do none of those organizations pose a threat to their organization? Forgive me. I'm trying to figure out where the problem my lie (if there is one).

Maybe there is an issue that I am unaware of. But, if they have a problem (as I said, IF) it is a fight that would be creating, not us.

I cannot speak for any of the umpires on the list that will be working this championship other than myself. But, I do not have a grievance against ASA. This decision to work in HB is not a shun against ASA, but rather an opportunity to work some great softball with some great umpires while I stay at home. Any one of you who has met me, talked with me, drained a pitcher or two with me or even attended one of my camps (God help you) can attest to the fact that I praise ASA and their role in developing softball umpires. I will never speak bad about the way that ASA builds great umpires out of raw talent. They are and always will be the leader in primary umpire development.

I need to stop. My beer ran out.

Once again your claims are wrong.....open mouth insert foot!!

Wade, you can call someone any name you want, tell someone their observations are BS horse hockey...tell them what they have and haven't seen...whatever...your day dream will continue...

For your information...I have been a registered ASA umpire for 31 years...State UIC, State UIC/State Player Rep (Council Member), Asst. State UIC, District UIC etc. A Regional Player Rep (Council Member) a District JO Commissioner and so on....been to a few "rodeo's".

But one thing you are right on is...I have never "sat in" at your local selections as you have!! But have been a part of many many others.

And my point or intent is not to denegrate a particular affiliation...but simply to open the eyes of those who might exercise such blind devotion that they cant see the forest through the trees!!

You have blown your horn on a couple of different boards about your right to provoke thought by voicing your opinion...and yet you try to tell others "what to stick to"...

Your opinions and claims have changed and wavered...by your own admission. Your "predictions" have been like weather reports!!

I have heard the saying "umpires see things through their eyes..players, coaches and fans see things through their hearts"....

And now I think sometimes the opposite can be true...umpires are seeing things through their hearts and the players, fans and coaches are seeing things through their eyes!!

In summary...YES....I am proud to support GH's talking points and I support the Premier Tournament as a good start to making things better across the board for Girls Fastpitch Softball!!

Well, I think you should blame yourself. You need to work on your presentation - you seem more like a 28 year old childlike blathering fool of a softball parent of a 10U player or a troll than anyone who knows what they are talking about... and this goes back to even your very first post - of which I've reviewed them all. Admittedly, you havent always been as trollish as you have been since you've become Gary's personal bantering harpie here (as if we cant read it there) - but you havent offered this forum a single piece of valuable information, interpretation, or insight for someone as supposedly experienced as you are.

There has not been a single post that would indicate you know anything at all about officiating. I never even thought you were an umpire. That is very strange. I thought you were a heybucket parent who found the forum just tosay stuff. At one point I thought you might be an 18G parent. Nothing about you indicated intelligence or knowledge of the game; let alone wisdom earned by being at "the rodeo".

You do make a damn fine parrot though.

Well, I'm sure I will know or know of personnally many of the umps working this tourney; we shall be able to immediately know first hand who has inserted their foot into their mouth as to your "excommunication" claims. The only time I've seen that is if you turn your back on the association when you are needed.. not if you arent needed and just go work somewhere. That has nothing to do with who you are working for, but your value to an association if you cant be counted on. I work NAFA and IFA - a recent inductee to our HOF has his ISC accomplishments listed. There are no issues.

And my wavering has nothing to do with whether or not I believe Gary is the messiah of 18G and should support his leading teams to some so cal showcase to battle for tshirts stored in his garage.

I waver on fence distance rules, whether or not college players should be allowed (most of his of his self serving selfish talking points did not sway me at all-so I lean towards leaving 18G a true 18G championship), and whether it should move around (I think no, but obviously, everyone hates playing there, so ASA needs to address it). i do not waver on the fact I think there should be a coaches committee and they need to be able to express legit grievances..

Not only that but I do think the east coast are going to be flooded with A LOT more 15y/o so cal teams playing up traveling to steal berths, who may just whup em, for 18G qualifiers if they allow this college player change.

And it seems OKC @ 9 days is way too long and 1 week at other tourneys may even be too long (some of us have lives).

Besides.. why should slow pitch guys get credit for a whole national when they work a few games on a weekend between beers...and I gotta work games all week to get the same credit...They should get like a 1/2 national for every tourney. :D

Thanks for the advice! I will try and remember it!!

He has a point. You came across as a parent, coach, etc. ANYTHING other than an umpre.......

Delivery is everything.

Yo, Bubba!!! I can guarantee Wade has no blind devotion to anyone. Then again, your "forest" is nothing, but opinion and observation. Offering a varying opinion is NOT blind devotion just because it doesn't agree with yours, unless you are the reincarnation of Sen. Joe McCarthy :rolleyes:.

Pot..Kettle

Now, you see, my opinion is that is rubbish. Umpire's have no horse in this race.

And that is fine, but your methods are questionable. You have been like the politician who vows to run a clean campaign and then proceeds to tell everyone what a lousy job the opponent has done instead of telling everyone what it is that you can do to make it better. While GH has stated this isn't anything to do with being anti-ASA, all that has been said is that if ASA refuses to change to accommodate this one group of teams, they are wrong even though ASA clearly states and continually reinforces their dedication and mission to promote ALL softball, not just that for those who have bought into the scholarship (imo) scam.

Hey, Smoke. Can I come? I'll bring the fat tire and give you another ump from out of state

While not knowing who you are, I can see your credentials are exceptional. If only I was the person making the decisions. Send the Ft Collins Finest anyways, please. it WILL NOT go to waste.

-Smokey

Sure you know who I am. I even have a pic of you with a Willie Nelson wig on that my daughter took when you were in Austin

Wade, go ahead and educate the masses about what you know about me from my HeyBucket posts. The short bio is that I'm just another DumbA$$ parent in SoCal, never a softball coach or official of any sort.

From what I've seen, you umps typically segregate yourselves from coaches, players and parents off the field. I know zero about being an ump and I know little more about softball, but that voluntary segregation seems 100% appropriate and correct. It also suggests that you are as unlikely to be privy to much of what is going on between coaches as outsiders are privy to what is going on between umps.

The result as it relates to the posts in this thread, is that much of what is written about this tournament is largely or completely ignorant. IOW, you folks know very little about the specifics of the dynamic from which this tournament originated and it is predictable that you are surprised by some of what has come out so far. OTOH, if you had the relevant knowledge, you would have been surprised by little of this and it would make perfect sense to you (which it obviously doesn't given your posts openly wondering about some things). Many of the statements being made now by you folks have already been shown and will be clearly shown to be 100% wrong by the indisputable actions that actually take place WRT to this tournament. Don't feel bad. My kid played for more than 3 years in 18 Gold before I had a clue about anything that goes on behind the scenes. I still don't know crap about it, but I obviously know more than those that know nothing about it.

I also have to wonder about some of the comments about softball related scholarships that I have read. They do not reflect my experiences with college recruiting a couple of years ago, though admittedly, some things have apparently changed since then. Comments about the numbers of kids getting 25% or less rides versus more than that simply do not make mathematical sense based upon the number of scholarships versus the number of players. Start with the number of scholarships, subtract 4 kids getting a 25% ride and look at the remaining ratio. Factor in the odd kid on the team with full academic money and those with no scholarship money whatsoever. As for the notion that pitchers (and even include SSs and catchers) are about the only ones receiving more than 25% athletic money, again, unsupported by our experiences with major D1 colleges in a variety of conferences and locations. A concrete example: A Big-10 coach told us that they were giving 1 full ride to a pitcher and one full ride to a position player for my kid's graduating class. I doubt that their approach was unique and in fact was consistent with other hard offers received. Don't believe me, then believe your own eyes. How many of the top position players in this past years WCWS were impressive defensively? The kids were obviously recruited for their bats irrespective, at least to some degree, of the position they played.

This notion that these college kids are not paid. Right. Do their scholarships continue if they decide to quit the team? Nope. So what is the $30K tuition per year for, that we don't have to pay for my kid to attend that college? I doubt that it is because they prize her 2.9 GPA. Legal tender is the criteria for determining whether it constitutes payment? If a company pays for your housing costs do you consider that to be part of your compensation package? And BTW, the housing costs my kid will be given are rather generous WRT to the cost of housing at that location.

Finally, the notion that college players should play at 18 Gold Nationals. I'll just say that I don't think it would be fair for HS kids to compete in the classroom against top students with a year of college under their belt. How is softball different? Or maybe you think it is fair, as long as they are the same age.

It's your board. I'm just an uninvited visitor. Frankly, I will read the responses and not likely respond. Like the old Who song says "I don't need to fight to prove I'm right ..." Especially since I may well be wrong on every point.

That would surely be a first and oh so painful. (sarcasm)

Oh BTW Wade, I suggested you go F**K yourself on HeyBucket with the assumption you would take issue with it. My response was going to be to quote your post to SSarge and say I was just "goofing around."

Regards,
John

For those working games and tournaments, absolutely. Elsewhere? It may be true where you are, not everywhere. It is amazing how many people assume that an umpire is only an umpire and has knowledge limited to that field. However, you would be wrong. Many umpires have or are still playing some level of the game, have or are still coaching at some level of the game. And there are quite a few who actually sponsor and manage teams.

Did you ever notice that quite a few commissioners at all levels in all associations have umpired at one time or another? Why, you may ask? Because most umpires are in the game for the game. Not because they have a daughter playing, are looking for a scholarship, doing community service or social recognition. You should not discount an umpire's opinion just because they happen to be an umpire.

Again, making a helluva an assumption, aren't we? :D

Can they spend, trade or barter with this scholarship? Does student pay income taxes on the scholarship? Are you taxed on perks received through your employment whether health insurance, use of a company vehicle, tickets to a sporting event or may even an extra night accommodations when traveling on business? Also, IMO, the actual dollar value is exaggerated. Yes, someone doesn't have to pay the tuition, but the actual cost to the school probably doesn't come close to the declared value.

Again, and again, and again, and again....ASA's mission is to promote softball for all and at the youth level participation is based upon the player's birth date. Nowhere in the 120 pages of the ASA Code (Amateur Softball Association of America (ASA) ) will you find the words "school" or "scholarship". So, I have no idea why anyone would assume or expect special treatment for players who have yet to be offered a scholarship.

As stated many, many, many times, what is so wrong about a team playing to win a true national championship with the best players available within a classification?

My comments about allowing college players were intentionally general which is why I used the analogy of academic competition to illustrate the basis for my view of unfairness. Of course there is nothing inherently wrong as you state. In the case of 18 Gold softball competition, you are obviously right that the current ASA rules clearly provide for it. Was a time when the laws in this country prohibited women from owning property and voting. Personally, I think they should still be on the books and rigorously enforced but others decided they should change and that change constitutes progress. (Okay, the part about my opinion was a joke) In this particular context and given my views about what youth sports should be about, I believe any player with college experience should not be allowed to compete in 18 Gold. My view as a know-nothing parent is that the rules should change. I will feel the same way next summer when my own kid is eligible to join a team just for Nationals.

BTW, I have no idea what you were referring to in the "special treatment ..." sentence.

Yes, I know I responded when I earlier suggested I wouldn't. I seriously doubt that it will become a habit. It just takes too much time.

Regards,
John

Have the organizers of the event decided what rule book they will be choosing to have enforced?

Wow...sometimes we "live by the sword...and sometimes we die by the sword".

Just goofin!!

Mark,

At this point, to my knowledge, there has been no discussion (at least among us working stiffs) about that question. At this time there is far more important things for them to organize than whether or not a second rounding or returning obstruction is an automatic next base.

Unless they already have and not told their people to tell us.

11 months away....

Smokey

Guess I'm gonna have to ask what a "second rounding" is?

And, IMO, automatic awards do not help the game or players.

It's a reference to NCAA rules.

I know. I was trying to steer the conversation into a more productive direction.

Arguing over things that don't matter or can't be changed is a little like being married.:eek:

More specifically (grammar can always be an issue, as you took the phrase out of context), it is a reference to the two types of obstruction (when rounding or returning to a base) that NCAA addresses differently; with a warning to the player on a first offense, and an automatic forward base award if the same player commits a second offense.

It is presumed that these, by their nature, are intentional acts, not the random accident which should only be negated; so there should be a more punitive response.

I love the irony of playing with a college rule but not allowing college players.

All I've read (here, other boards, and on the web site of the tournament) still boils this down to:

o Cali coaches have their nose out of joint about having to travel to the land of the infidels instead of having the permanent home of the Gold tournament in mecca

o Cali coaches don't like being beaten by teams with college freshmen players and having to deal with parents upset because their little "Jenny Finch" did not get the scholarship to the Pac-10 school they were promised (by the coach, of course).

Everything else is window-dressing to make it appear that they have a legitimate beef with ASA.

FWIW, both Men's and Women's Fastpitch are still in the third largest international sporting event in the world - the Maccabiah.

Nice, but it's not the Olympics.

Tom, I think you are missing the biggest bullet points; the ones that have the teams outside California most upset.

Their most legitimate complaint is the length of the tournament, and the amount of time needed to play a 64 team tournament. They need to arrive the Saturday before the tournament starts, with required activities on Sunday; and, since they need to assume they will be in the championship games the next Sunday, make return flights the next Monday. That's 10 days. Of the 64 teams, 16 will play 4 games, 16 will play 5 games; in 10 days. Most would be willing to play that many games in 1 day, happy to play that many in 2 days. The cause is the location (which is probably secondary to the problem, not a different problem); it is a 4 field complex when the tournament should be played on an 8 field complex. That simple.

(And, the remote site used just to shorten pool play is not championship quality, and hardly should be used even for pool play. Forget using it to shorten the brackets.) Although a bond issue has been approved by OKC to expand the HOF complex, no telling when that would be available, and they have been unhappy for years. Just what do you do with 15-20 teens with all that down time in OKC?? It is an alright place to visit, but not to entertain all those teens. Particularly those there for the 3rd 10 day visit!!

The second issue is more basic than even that. For years, ASA officials (not umpires) have asked the Gold coaches what they could do to make it better; for years, very few of their ideas have left that room or the survey. If ASA is inherently opposed and unable to eliminate college players that are age eligible, that needed to be explained up front, and not let the coaches think their input could effect that change. If ASA is committed (as part of the aforementioned bond issue) to keeping the tournament in OKC, say that, and solicit those comments that would improve the experience in OKC. ASA also hasn't done a good job of overseeing and monitoring the Qualifying process; non-championship fields used (some with no fences one year, some with 170' fences another year), changing entry rules on the fly, not attempting to spread the calendar to give teams the most opportunities, etc. The non-Cal coaches that I know feel like they have been ignored; they are told they are the elite program, but treated like they have no real input.

And, trust me, I know quite a few Gold coaches; not just in Georgia. I am the webmaster of a Georgia messageboard, and work a lot of Gold events during the year. As an ASA council member, I see some of the roadblocks and problems with attempting to placate the group that is unhappy; I also am reminded that ASA is a service industry, and that our customer isn't happy.

I think we oversimplify the issue, and lead those that are also monitoring our board (now that a link was placed on heybucket) to think "the umpires just don't get it" if we say it is just Cali coaches wanting their way.

And, for all I know, I may be in trouble for posting this. But, it is what I see.

Steve, I think this issue is more than XX number of days. Like I stated previously, the 2002 Gold was played on an 8 field complex. The games began on Monday and finished on Sunday. A "savings" of two days, and I think the number of teams was less than 64 (52 or 53 I believe). No one complained about the location, which was rural OK, or length of the tournament. And at that time, the top pitcher eligible to play was not there, she was playing for the US team. Want to venture a guess who won that year?

What has changed since 2002? More teams playing Gold, and way more showcases. The culture is now to show up on Tuesday, play for fun on Wed/Thurs/Friday, then single elimination on Sat/Sun. And they go to one every week, so who really has time for a tournament that really means something?

I guess it isn't too difficult to figure out what side of the argument I'm on. Nationals used to be the end all of the summer. Now it is just an annoyance.

I did it in 2001 & 2004; 64 (I think 2004 was the 65 team year) teams, 8 fields in Marietta, GA. The first day was just sign-in, opening ceremonies, an exhibition game.

Totally wasted day, and the rest of the tournament was really drawn out.

The math is 64 pool games; 8 rounds of 8 games. Coach luncheon and draw (if not done in advance), check-in, opening ceremonies, play two rounds opening night. Play 6 rounds day 2, draw that night (if pool used for seeding), team parties that night.

Day three, play 6 rounds of elimination bracket (no one sent home, 9, 11, 1, 4, 6, 8). Day 4, play 7 rounds of elimination (9, 11, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9). There would be 8 winners, 8 losers left; day 5, finish the tournament.

It could Tuesday thru Saturday, with Sunday as a rain day and travel day. I believe that is the Premier plan, more or less.

The length of the tournament could be a legitimate beef, except if you notice what is being emphasized is high school players only, location, and college coaches in attendance.

It is at its core a showcase tournament being put on for the convenience of the socal teams, with window dressing to draw in teams from outside socal.

There is no doubt in my mind that ASA handled the long-standing coach's complaints poorly. If, in fact, they merely took suggestions and provided little or no feedback (as you suggest), that is worse than not taking suggestions at all, since it can easily be taken as deceptive.

I'm completely out of the loop on the internal workings of the ASA, but it has been clear even to me that ASA was viewing OKC as the permanant home of the 18U Gold tournament. I still think that is the crux of the issue for the socal teams; they feel they are not being paid their due homage. They'd be perfectly happy if ASA's HQ and therefore the permanent home was in Barstow and you'd hear nary a peep about the hot weather or lack of activities.

Some dead on balls assessments by Tom and Steve right there..