The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 11:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Definition of bat and reach first safely

So I was trying to understand rule 4 better last night as well. In rule 4 it says that an unreported substitute who bats and reaches first safely is out if timely appealed. But what does bat and reach first mean here? Does it mean they have to hit the ball, or does getting hit or walked count?
If I'm the alert slow pitch DC, is the correct way to leverage this rule that when an unreported substitute comes in I immediately intentionally walk him and then appeal? If I'm the semi-alert OC who forgot to report the sub and realize what's going on when the intentional walk is issued and I try and report the sub while he's running down to first do I get to report my unreported substitute before the appeal.
________
Desire4you

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:03pm.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 12:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,269
I sent this to a couple of my local UICs and got no response. I posted this on April 2, and no one replied. I guess it falls under that "everyone knows what they should do" category.

This relates to ASA rules.

I'm back on this subject with a question. I've been updating some files I have on certain sections of the rules that I think I need to stay current with. As I was entering 4.6.C, I came across a quandry.

3. When they bat and reach first base safely and are discovered: a. BEFORE the next pitch; b. Before the defense has left the field of play; c. Before the umpires have left the field of play.
EFFECT: All runners will return to the last base occupied prior to the batted ball. The U.S. is officially in the game and called out. All other outs that occurred on this play stand.

4. When discovered after completing their turn at bat and: a. AFTER the next pitch; b. Before the defense has left the field; c. Before the umpires have left the field of play.
EFFECT: The U.S. is officially in the game. Any advance of runner(s) as a result of the play is legal.


To me, it seems like the difference between 3 & 4 should be regarding whether a pitch [legal/illegal] has occurred.

Consider in 3, if there is a runner on third base with less than 2 outs, and an U.S. comes to bat and hits a SacFly to score the runner. Since the batter/U.S. did not reach first base safely, rule 3 cannot be invoked. Even if they are discovered and protested before the next pitch. The U.S. is already out, but in the game. But can you return the runner to 3B?

I believe that is the intent of this rule, but if the U.S./batter doesn't reach 1B safely, it can't be applied.

Now in 4, I think the wording is clearer where is says "after completing their turn at bat". I believe if that wording were transposed into 3, it wouldn't be an issue.

This another one of those "we know how it should be called" rules? The wording from 2008 and earlier is also a little glitchy.

Thanx,

Ted
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 12:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns
Posts: 3,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
So I was trying to understand rule 4 better last night as well. In rule 4 it says that an unreported substitute who bats and reaches first safely is out if timely appealed. But what does bat and reach first mean here? Does it mean they have to hit the ball, or does getting hit or walked count?
If I'm the alert slow pitch DC, is the correct way to leverage this rule that when an unreported substitute comes in I immediately intentionally walk him and then appeal? If I'm the semi-alert OC who forgot to report the sub and realize what's going on when the intentional walk is issued and I try and report the sub while he's running down to first do I get to report my unreported substitute before the appeal.

Most smart coaches do wait for them to reach first safely. But it would be dumb to walk them, what if they get out or what if the other coach figures it out on 3-0.

Coaches cant just report subs, they must be granted time.. which obviously would not happen during a live ball...
__________________
ASA, NCAA, NFHS
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 03:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
Most smart coaches do wait for them to reach first safely. But it would be dumb to walk them, what if they get out or what if the other coach figures it out on 3-0.

Coaches cant just report subs, they must be granted time.. which obviously would not happen during a live ball...
It wouldn't be dumb to walk them. If they hit a sacrifice, then there is no penalty for batting improperly. I was thinking of a walk in SP only as good strategy because in SP you don't have to throw the pitches.
________
Girlgonewild1 Live

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:03pm.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 03:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
I sent this to a couple of my local UICs and got no response. I posted this on April 2, and no one replied. I guess it falls under that "everyone knows what they should do" category.

This relates to ASA rules.

I'm back on this subject with a question. I've been updating some files I have on certain sections of the rules that I think I need to stay current with. As I was entering 4.6.C, I came across a quandry.

3. When they bat and reach first base safely and are discovered: a. BEFORE the next pitch; b. Before the defense has left the field of play; c. Before the umpires have left the field of play.
EFFECT: All runners will return to the last base occupied prior to the batted ball. The U.S. is officially in the game and called out. All other outs that occurred on this play stand.

4. When discovered after completing their turn at bat and: a. AFTER the next pitch; b. Before the defense has left the field; c. Before the umpires have left the field of play.
EFFECT: The U.S. is officially in the game. Any advance of runner(s) as a result of the play is legal.


To me, it seems like the difference between 3 & 4 should be regarding whether a pitch [legal/illegal] has occurred.

Consider in 3, if there is a runner on third base with less than 2 outs, and an U.S. comes to bat and hits a SacFly to score the runner. Since the batter/U.S. did not reach first base safely, rule 3 cannot be invoked. Even if they are discovered and protested before the next pitch. The U.S. is already out, but in the game. But can you return the runner to 3B?

I believe that is the intent of this rule, but if the U.S./batter doesn't reach 1B safely, it can't be applied.

Now in 4, I think the wording is clearer where is says "after completing their turn at bat". I believe if that wording were transposed into 3, it wouldn't be an issue.

This another one of those "we know how it should be called" rules? The wording from 2008 and earlier is also a little glitchy.

Thanx,

Ted
I actually don't know how the ones I posted should be called.
Though I would prefer to go ahead and be able to send runners back if I were writing the book, the book is clear as can be that you only nullify advances if the batter is safe. If out, all play stands.
________
Live sex webshows

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:04pm.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 03:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns
Posts: 3,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
It wouldn't be dumb to walk them. If they hit a sacrifice, then there is no penalty for batting improperly. I was thinking of a walk in SP only as good strategy because in SP you don't have to throw the pitches.
Obviously, the run would be nullified and any runner who advanced would be returned
__________________
ASA, NCAA, NFHS
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 04:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
Obviously, the run would be nullified and any runner who advanced would be returned
Obviously or not, that's in complete contradiction to the written rule. After a pitch, legal or illegal, or after a made play, all action stands. The only section of the rule that talks about nullifying advances is if the batter bats and reaches first safely.
________
Web Shows

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:04pm.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 04:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns
Posts: 3,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
Obviously or not, that's in complete contradiction to the written rule. After a pitch, legal or illegal, or after a made play, all action stands. The only section of the rule that talks about nullifying advances is if the batter bats and reaches first safely.
I think you read one sentence and grasp onto it instead of trying to understand the entirety of the rule. You need to read further. Also, there is an entire section of the rule book devoted to BOO under "Batting".
You would do well to read it as well.

Please do so, then post again.
__________________
ASA, NCAA, NFHS
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 04:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
I think you read one sentence and grasp onto it instead of trying to understand the entirety of the rule. You need to read further. Also, there is an entire section of the rule book devoted to BOO under "Batting".
You would do well to read it as well.

Please do so, then post again.
What does the section on BOO have to do with unreported substitutes? I'm planning on reading it tonight anyway, so I'll be happy to go through it, but would you like to give me a hint. I do realize that if this person was BOO instead of unreported that the action would be nullified safe or out, but that isn't the case.
________
Novana Residence Condos Pattaya

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:04pm.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 05:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns
Posts: 3,220
I think understanding subs, BOO, and the RSs help the umpire gain a whole understanding of the spirit of the rules. I think if you read everything, you would know that the advanced runners would obviously be returned were the BR to be put out if noticed before the next pitch. It is the same in the rules and RS - if noticed prior to the next pitch, Out + runners return. If not noticed before the next pitch, Defense is SOL.
__________________
ASA, NCAA, NFHS
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 05:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
I think understanding subs, BOO, and the RSs help the umpire gain a whole understanding of the spirit of the rules. I think if you read everything, you would know that the advanced runners would obviously be returned were the BR to be put out if noticed before the next pitch. It is the same in the rules and RS - if noticed prior to the next pitch, Out + runners return. If not noticed before the next pitch, Defense is SOL.
I'll let you know if something I can find in the RS tonight changes my mind, but nothing in the BOO rule will do that. BOO is a different violation from an unreported sub and the penalty being less severe is a perfectly rational choice for ASA to make. Whether they intended to do so, I'm not sure. Hopefully there's a RS that helps.
________
How To Roll A Joint

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:04pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 15, 2009, 05:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns
Posts: 3,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
I'll let you know if something I can find in the RS tonight changes my mind, but nothing in the BOO rule will do that. BOO is a different violation from an unreported sub and the penalty being less severe is a perfectly rational choice for ASA to make. Whether they intended to do so, I'm not sure. Hopefully there's a RS that helps.
Well the RS says it clearly and plainly.
Quote:
Should an unreported substitute bat and it is discovered prior to the next pitch, all runners are returned to their original base, any outs recorded stand, the unreported substitute is oficially in the game and called out.
Its obvious, to me anyway, ASA's intent is that the offense not gain the advantage you think is potentially there through cheating either with BOO or subs.
__________________
ASA, NCAA, NFHS
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 16, 2009, 10:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
Well the RS says it clearly and plainly.


Its obvious, to me anyway, ASA's intent is that the offense not gain the advantage you think is potentially there through cheating either with BOO or subs.
Agreed now that I've read, the RS provides a totally different rule -- in my opinion a better one. So, given the choice, I'm going your way on this one. (Still think BOO is completely irrelevant, though.)
________
XELENA1 LIVE

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:05pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How Did They Reach This Compromise? cshs81 Baseball 12 Thu Jul 10, 2008 08:02am
trying to reach whistleone blewthat Basketball 0 Wed Jan 25, 2006 02:55pm
Reach over T ripcord51 Basketball 13 Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:56am
Do you reach... ref18 Basketball 25 Wed Apr 06, 2005 08:03pm
Reach and other stuff OverAndBack Basketball 10 Sun Feb 13, 2005 03:40pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:35am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1