Definition of bat and reach first safely

[youngump]

So I was trying to understand rule 4 better last night as well. In rule 4 it says that an unreported substitute who bats and reaches first safely is out if timely appealed. But what does bat and reach first mean here? Does it mean they have to hit the ball, or does getting hit or walked count?
If I'm the alert slow pitch DC, is the correct way to leverage this rule that when an unreported substitute comes in I immediately intentionally walk him and then appeal? If I'm the semi-alert OC who forgot to report the sub and realize what's going on when the intentional walk is issued and I try and report the sub while he's running down to first do I get to report my unreported substitute before the appeal.
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[Tru_in_Blu]

I sent this to a couple of my local UICs and got no response. I posted this on April 2, and no one replied. I guess it falls under that "everyone knows what they should do" category.

This relates to ASA rules.

I'm back on this subject with a question. I've been updating some files I have on certain sections of the rules that I think I need to stay current with. As I was entering 4.6.C, I came across a quandry.

3. When they bat and reach first base safely and are discovered: a. BEFORE the next pitch; b. Before the defense has left the field of play; c. Before the umpires have left the field of play.
EFFECT: All runners will return to the last base occupied prior to the batted ball. The U.S. is officially in the game and called out. All other outs that occurred on this play stand.

4. When discovered after completing their turn at bat and: a. AFTER the next pitch; b. Before the defense has left the field; c. Before the umpires have left the field of play.
EFFECT: The U.S. is officially in the game. Any advance of runner(s) as a result of the play is legal.

To me, it seems like the difference between 3 & 4 should be regarding whether a pitch [legal/illegal] has occurred.

Consider in 3, if there is a runner on third base with less than 2 outs, and an U.S. comes to bat and hits a SacFly to score the runner. Since the batter/U.S. did not reach first base safely, rule 3 cannot be invoked. Even if they are discovered and protested before the next pitch. The U.S. is already out, but in the game. But can you return the runner to 3B?

I believe that is the intent of this rule, but if the U.S./batter doesn't reach 1B safely, it can't be applied.

Now in 4, I think the wording is clearer where is says "after completing their turn at bat". I believe if that wording were transposed into 3, it wouldn't be an issue.

This another one of those "we know how it should be called" rules? The wording from 2008 and earlier is also a little glitchy.

Thanx,

Ted

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I sent this to a couple of my local UICs and got no response. I posted this on April 2, and no one replied. I guess it falls under that "everyone knows what they should do" category.

This relates to ASA rules.

I'm back on this subject with a question. I've been updating some files I have on certain sections of the rules that I think I need to stay current with. As I was entering 4.6.C, I came across a quandry.

3. When they bat and reach first base safely and are discovered: a. BEFORE the next pitch; b. Before the defense has left the field of play; c. Before the umpires have left the field of play.
EFFECT: All runners will return to the last base occupied prior to the batted ball. The U.S. is officially in the game and called out. All other outs that occurred on this play stand.

4. When discovered after completing their turn at bat and: a. AFTER the next pitch; b. Before the defense has left the field; c. Before the umpires have left the field of play.
EFFECT: The U.S. is officially in the game. Any advance of runner(s) as a result of the play is legal.

To me, it seems like the difference between 3 & 4 should be regarding whether a pitch [legal/illegal] has occurred.

Consider in 3, if there is a runner on third base with less than 2 outs, and an U.S. comes to bat and hits a SacFly to score the runner. Since the batter/U.S. did not reach first base safely, rule 3 cannot be invoked. Even if they are discovered and protested before the next pitch. The U.S. is already out, but in the game. But can you return the runner to 3B?

I believe that is the intent of this rule, but if the U.S./batter doesn't reach 1B safely, it can't be applied.

Now in 4, I think the wording is clearer where is says "after completing their turn at bat". I believe if that wording were transposed into 3, it wouldn't be an issue.

This another one of those "we know how it should be called" rules? The wording from 2008 and earlier is also a little glitchy.

Thanx,

Ted

I actually don't know how the ones I posted should be called.
Though I would prefer to go ahead and be able to send runners back if I were writing the book, the book is clear as can be that you only nullify advances if the batter is safe. If out, all play stands.
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[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by youngump

So I was trying to understand rule 4 better last night as well. In rule 4 it says that an unreported substitute who bats and reaches first safely is out if timely appealed. But what does bat and reach first mean here? Does it mean they have to hit the ball, or does getting hit or walked count?
If I'm the alert slow pitch DC, is the correct way to leverage this rule that when an unreported substitute comes in I immediately intentionally walk him and then appeal? If I'm the semi-alert OC who forgot to report the sub and realize what's going on when the intentional walk is issued and I try and report the sub while he's running down to first do I get to report my unreported substitute before the appeal.

Most smart coaches do wait for them to reach first safely. But it would be dumb to walk them, what if they get out or what if the other coach figures it out on 3-0.

Coaches cant just report subs, they must be granted time.. which obviously would not happen during a live ball...

[youngump]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Most smart coaches do wait for them to reach first safely. But it would be dumb to walk them, what if they get out or what if the other coach figures it out on 3-0.

Coaches cant just report subs, they must be granted time.. which obviously would not happen during a live ball...

It wouldn't be dumb to walk them. If they hit a sacrifice, then there is no penalty for batting improperly. I was thinking of a walk in SP only as good strategy because in SP you don't have to throw the pitches.
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[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by youngump

It wouldn't be dumb to walk them. If they hit a sacrifice, then there is no penalty for batting improperly. I was thinking of a walk in SP only as good strategy because in SP you don't have to throw the pitches.

Obviously, the run would be nullified and any runner who advanced would be returned

[youngump]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Obviously, the run would be nullified and any runner who advanced would be returned

Obviously or not, that's in complete contradiction to the written rule. After a pitch, legal or illegal, or after a made play, all action stands. The only section of the rule that talks about nullifying advances is if the batter bats and reaches first safely.
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[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by youngump

Obviously or not, that's in complete contradiction to the written rule. After a pitch, legal or illegal, or after a made play, all action stands. The only section of the rule that talks about nullifying advances is if the batter bats and reaches first safely.

I think you read one sentence and grasp onto it instead of trying to understand the entirety of the rule. You need to read further. Also, there is an entire section of the rule book devoted to BOO under "Batting".
You would do well to read it as well.

Please do so, then post again.