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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 12:02am
MJT MJT is offline
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ump calls infield fly, but it is not

I have never seen this but have thought about it and do not know how it works in SB compared to FB and basketball. In FB and BB you can have an inadvertent whistle, with rules accordingly. Do you have such in SB if there is a situation like 2 outs, runners on 1st and 2nd and on a fly ball to the infield an one of the umpires yells "infield fly, batter is out." So, what do you do now?
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 12:12am
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Advance all runners 1 base (as long as ball is fair and not caught) due to force.

I believe some on here call this "The God Rule".
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 07:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gumpire View Post
Advance all runners 1 base (as long as ball is fair and not caught) due to force.

I believe some on here call this "The God Rule".
More likely the "jeopardy" rule.
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 07:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gumpire View Post
Advance all runners 1 base (as long as ball is fair and not caught) due to force.

I believe some on here call this "The God Rule".
That's actually not the God Rule. The God Rule is 10-1, whereby the plate umpire can render a decision on something not specifically covered by the rulebook.

10-3-C, however, covers where the plate umpire can rectify a situation where a delayed call or a reversal in a call (in this case, reversing the call of an IFF) puts the defense or offense in jeopardy. At this point, a certain amount of discretionary judgment becomes involved, where the plate umpire must reasonably judge how to properly "fix" the situation.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 07:59am
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OK, I must be missing something. The post said TWO outs - you can't advance the runners due to the force and still call the batter out. That adds up to THREE outs by my math.

In my opinion, this is one of those situations when the players and coaches really are supposed to know the rules. The infield fly call mechanic is really just confirmation that (1) we are aware of the situation, and (2) that it's an "infield" fly vs. a ball too far past the basepaths for IF to apply.

In this situation, the batter must know that IF does not apply with 2 outs; his coaches must know and yell at her/him to keep running. The God Rule does not provide for do-overs.
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 08:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp View Post
OK, I must be missing something. The post said TWO outs - you can't advance the runners due to the force and still call the batter out. That adds up to THREE outs by my math.
Yep, you are. Re-read gumpire's post. It says that if the ball wasn't caught and it would have been a fair ball, put the BR on 1B and advance the runners, if forced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp View Post
In my opinion, this is one of those situations when the players and coaches really are supposed to know the rules. The infield fly call mechanic is really just confirmation that (1) we are aware of the situation, and (2) that it's an "infield" fly vs. a ball too far past the basepaths for IF to apply.
Too far past the basepaths? I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that you don't really mean that. Calling an IFF has zero to do with basepaths, and everything to do with whether an infielder can catch the ball with ordinary effort. The infielder can be standing in the grass and jog halfway into the outfield, and it will still be an IFF as long as he did so with ordinary effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp View Post
In this situation, the batter must know that IF does not apply with 2 outs; his coaches must know and yell at her/him to keep running. The God Rule does not provide for do-overs.
No, that's our job. It'd be nice if they knew, but the reality is that a lot of people, even HUGE fans of the game, can't explain what the IFF rule is. Maybe I'm spending too much time in the trenches with rec-league softball that I consider it a luxury to have players understand basic rules, but that's just how I see it.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 08:35am
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My comments were directed toward the situation as posted which did NOT specify whether a play could have been made at 1B (or any other base). It seemed the situation was suggesting that BR stopped running when she heard "infield fly, batter is out".

Can't put BR on first if a play was made at any base - that's out number 3.

So that's what I was referring to - what do we do if the IF call resulted in the BR not running? That's where my comments about the offense (and defense) need to know the situation came into play 'cause we can't say "I messed up, BR you get first" if the defense made an easy play because she stopped running at the call.

Does that make more sense now as to where I was going with this line of thinking?
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 08:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp View Post
My comments were directed toward the situation as posted which did NOT specify whether a play could have been made at 1B (or any other base). It seemed the situation was suggesting that BR stopped running when she heard "infield fly, batter is out".

Can't put BR on first if a play was made at any base - that's out number 3.

So that's what I was referring to - what do we do if the IF call resulted in the BR not running? That's where my comments about the offense (and defense) need to know the situation came into play 'cause we can't say "I messed up, BR you get first" if the defense made an easy play because she stopped running at the call.

Does that make more sense now as to where I was going with this line of thinking?
It does. However, why did the BR stop running? Because the PU screwed up. The BR heard that s/he was out, so s/he stopped. If the PU hadn't have called the IFF, I'm pretty certain the BR would've kept going.

So since the PU f'ed up, s/he now has to fix it. If the ball wasn't caught, put the BR on 1B and advance any forced runners. If the ball WAS caught, then none of this matters, as the defense still made the out, and the BR's actions are irrelevant.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 08:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp View Post
That's actually not the God Rule. The God Rule is 10-1, whereby the plate umpire can render a decision on something not specifically covered by the rulebook.

10-3-C, however, covers where the plate umpire can rectify a situation where a delayed call or a reversal in a call (in this case, reversing the call of an IFF) puts the defense or offense in jeopardy. At this point, a certain amount of discretionary judgment becomes involved, where the plate umpire must reasonably judge how to properly "fix" the situation.
Correct, the "jeopardy" rule.

The judgement is what affect the call had on offense or defense. In the OP, let's say the ball is not caught.

If the effect is the BR does not get to 1st, then it probably should be awarded if it appeared she would have made it otherwise.

Same goes for the other runners.

Then we have to judge whether the fielder who got the ball would have an out on another runner w/o being fooled by the call. If so, as above, probably judge the defense in jeopardy and count the out. Really tough to guess an
out though, so it would have to be real obvious.
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 09:13am
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Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Then we have to judge whether the fielder who got the ball would have an out on another runner w/o being fooled by the call. If so, as above, probably judge the defense in jeopardy and count the out. Really tough to guess an out though, so it would have to be real obvious.
I think the last sentence is key here. Anytime you have this kind of a situation, you have to be absolutely DEAD positive if you're ever going to consider calling an out. Even then, I'm extremely hesitant to call an out. I can think of only VERY few situations where I would do so.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp View Post
My comments were directed toward the situation as posted which did NOT specify whether a play could have been made at 1B (or any other base). It seemed the situation was suggesting that BR stopped running when she heard "infield fly, batter is out".

Can't put BR on first if a play was made at any base - that's out number 3.

So that's what I was referring to - what do we do if the IF call resulted in the BR not running? That's where my comments about the offense (and defense) need to know the situation came into play 'cause we can't say "I messed up, BR you get first" if the defense made an easy play because she stopped running at the call.

Does that make more sense now as to where I was going with this line of thinking?
Several bad things can happen as a result of an inadvertent IFF call, mostly to the offense.

1. The BR stops running.
2. The other runners believe the force is removed so they hang back closer to their base than they otherwise would, and may not advance at all if the ball is not caught.

It is also possible the defense will not make a throw for a force out, depriving them of an out.

In the OP situation, this bad stuff only matters if the ball is not caught.
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 01:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp View Post
That's actually not the God Rule. The God Rule is 10-1, whereby the plate umpire can render a decision on something not specifically covered by the rulebook.

10-3-C, however, covers where the plate umpire can rectify a situation where a delayed call or a reversal in a call (in this case, reversing the call of an IFF) puts the defense or offense in jeopardy. At this point, a certain amount of discretionary judgment becomes involved, where the plate umpire must reasonably judge how to properly "fix" the situation.
Thank you for the clarification Dave & Cecil...i wasn't sure about that but now I can be.
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 01:51pm
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Although not likely, the fielder may not bother to catch the "easy" pop up right in front of them.

In the heat of the moment, fielder's brain may register "hmm, IFF, batters out - Ok, I'll just go to the dugout because there are already 2 outs." Obviosly, not a correct thought, but.................
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 03:00pm
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Originally Posted by robbie View Post
Although not likely, the fielder may not bother to catch the "easy" pop up right in front of them.

In the heat of the moment, fielder's brain may register "hmm, IFF, batters out - Ok, I'll just go to the dugout because there are already 2 outs." Obviosly, not a correct thought, but.................
Yeah, like Bubba and Moose can think that quick
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Old Fri Jun 26, 2009, 04:16pm
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Yeah, like Bubba and Moose can think that quick
Mike, have you forgot how fast they think when deer hunting?
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