blocking the plate question

[reccer]

Originally Posted by marvin

At least in high school MC trumps the OBS, also the emphasis should be on safety. DO NOT teach players to SEEK CONTACT. You are teaching them to play in an unsportsmanlike manner. In my experience, when an obstruction call is missed it not because there was no contact, it is because the ump had other responsibilities with multiple runners on.

I agree with you. There is a lot going on, especially for two man crew.

Don't put a Jack Tatum on them, but get some contact to draw Blue's attention.

Bottom line. Just have your runners do what they are supposed to do. If they are supposed to catch corners, have them do so, if the defender is in the way, well............

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by reccer

I agree with you. There is a lot going on, especially for two man crew.

Don't put a Jack Tatum on them, but get some contact to draw Blue's attention.

Bottom line. Just have your runners do what they are supposed to do. If they are supposed to catch corners, have them do so, if the defender is in the way, well............

I disagree with the "get some contact" statement. If I heard a coach tell his/her player that they should intentionally make contact with a player, I might have a few words for that coach (before considering sending them off to the parking lot).

My suggestion is to simply have the runner go, "woah!" as they dodge the defensive player. That's a better way of catching an umpire's attention, especially if they're watching another runner or checking for the ball.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by reccer

Don't put a Jack Tatum on them, but get some contact to draw Blue's attention.

I believe NFHS added the malicious contact rule a couple years ago because of coaches teaching this exact tactic. It was explained to me that umpires weren't calling obstruction when it had no bearing on the play. So coaches started instructing their players to initiate contact to draw the obstruction call. Now, if this is done maliciously we can get an out even with no play involved. The case play that was presented was the typical play at first, where the first baseman doesn't get out of the way and the runner collides with F3 intentionally to draw the OBS.

Coach, IMHO, it would be wise to avoid teaching this tactic to your players. Otherwise, you might get an out and then an ejection when you argue the call.

[reccer]

The case play that was presented was the typical play at first, where the first baseman doesn't get out of the way and the runner collides with F3 intentionally to draw the OBS.


Duly noted guys, and thanks for the case play reference. But remember, I coach in Texas, and apparently anything short of decapitation is not MC.

[reccer]

You wanted to cite the NCAA's? Well, I just hated seeing all those 1-0 games this year, the offense really sucked.


While watching this year I was thinking about our conversation a couple of years ago how boring it was with Osterman and the big kid from Tennessee. This year's NCAA's were incredible, bomb after bomb, as the pitchers were forced to give the batters a legitimate pitch to hit. That is, until the final game when PU injected himself into the game and took the bat out of Florida's hands with his phantom outside corner strikes that snuffed out the rallies.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by reccer

[I]That is, until the final game when PU injected himself into the game and took the bat out of Florida's hands with his phantom outside corner strikes that snuffed out the rallies.

I thought that that was the 2nd to the last game, not the final....

Besides (as I said before) it I thought it was UF's poor defensive play (in both games) tha really lost it for them.
(And I'm a UF Fan)

[HugoTafurst]

BTW:
Nice Photos

[ronald]

Originally Posted by reccer

Don't put a Jack Tatum on them, but get some contact to draw Blue's attention.

I saw that in a game (intentionally going after slow thinking defensive player). I warned the coach about it. In another words, next time I had an ejection coming. USC.

[reccer]

(intentionally going after slow thinking defensive player)

Would you go to UC if 1) the runner was running on the most appropriate path for the situation and 2) any contact made is relatively minor?

Here's the sitch. 18U tourney of what should be experienced teams. You are BU. You know I coach my players to, let me clean this up a little bit, not shy away from contact with a defensive player. DD slaps an obvious twisty double to left (but getting to third is not a possibility) F3 is standing on/near the inside corner (where DD wants to step.) DD could go wider and avoid contact, but she is the leadoff hitter, she is our first base runner, and she gives a nudge to the much larger F3 as she is sailing by as a not so gentle reminder to get out of the runners path.

Her purpose in making contact was to draw your attention to where the defense is positioned without the ball and to remind the defender she needs to move out of the way. I'm not going to get off of bucket to come whine we should have been awarded third because despite Mike's shrill commentary, I do know the obstruction rule (been on the board 4 years and it is by far the most discussed topic.)

As an aside to the young coach, I run drills at my practices to de-sensitize my girls from shying away from contact both defensively (head down field the grounder, don't worry about contact with the runner) and offensively, no stutter steps as we saw in the CWS

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by reccer

(intentionally going after slow thinking defensive player)

Would you go to UC if 1) the runner was running on the most appropriate path for the situation and 2) any contact made is relatively minor?

Here's the sitch. 18U tourney of what should be experienced teams. You are BU. You know I coach my players to, let me clean this up a little bit, not shy away from contact with a defensive player. DD slaps an obvious twisty double to left (but getting to third is not a possibility) F3 is standing on/near the inside corner (where DD wants to step.) DD could go wider and avoid contact, but she is the leadoff hitter, she is our first base runner, and she gives a nudge to the much larger F3 as she is sailing by as a not so gentle reminder to get out of the runners path.

Her purpose in making contact was to draw your attention to where the defense is positioned without the ball and to remind the defender she needs to move out of the way. I'm not going to get off of bucket to come whine we should have been awarded third because despite Mike's shrill commentary, I do know the obstruction rule (been on the board 4 years and it is by far the most discussed topic.)

As an aside to the young coach, I run drills at my practices to de-sensitize my girls from shying away from contact both defensively (head down field the grounder, don't worry about contact with the runner) and offensively, no stutter steps as we saw in the CWS

Coach, I will reiterate. If I see intentional contact, I'm either warning or tossing, regardless of whether or not the other player should be there. You may say it's a gentle bump. A gentle bump can be enough to cause injury at just the wrong moment, or it can be enough to incite a riot. If I see it, warnings or ejections will be given.

[reccer]

I'm either warning or tossing, regardless of whether or not the other player should be there.

--------------------------
Now I am going to have to become a mind reader, as you say you will be. Typing on a computer, you might say you would toss, but in the real world, I don't believe you. I am (in my opinion) a model coach. You are glad to see its my game you are working again. I meet you immediately at the plate when you call for me with exact change and a new ball (except if its a pool game) and have two more ready to be tossed in. I don't chirp about your strike zone, neither do my parents. I don't ask you to check with your partner who is 80 feet away unless I can bring you something I honestly saw. Pulled foot, dropped ball, etc. (Truth is, not really bragging on myself but giving a few tips to the young coach thread starter)

DD is protecting you at catcher. She is equally respectful of your authority and you work well together.

I don't see you ejecting, nor have I seen it (ejections of either coach or female players) happening with any measurable frequency in my 13 years of coaching. You guys talk a lot about ejections, but then you admit you really don't do it.

Second point, I wonder if potential UC is a geographic thing. An event that is not acceptable in a lilly white softball state like Minnesota, might be standard practice in the hispanic culture that I coach in. The majority of our players, coaches and umpires are of hispanic heritage. Maybe we are a little rougher down here, which is why we are the top producer of football players in the country (if you ignore that appendage on the East coast.) Just a thought.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by reccer

Now I am going to have to become a mind reader, as you say you will be. Typing on a computer, you might say you would toss, but in the real world, I don't believe you. I am (in my opinion) a model coach. You are glad to see its my game you are working again. I meet you immediately at the plate when you call for me with exact change and a new ball (except if its a pool game) and have two more ready to be tossed in. I don't chirp about your strike zone, neither do my parents. I don't ask you to check with your partner who is 80 feet away unless I can bring you something I honestly saw. Pulled foot, dropped ball, etc. (Truth is, not really bragging on myself but giving a few tips to the young coach thread starter)

DD is protecting you at catcher. She is equally respectful of your authority and you work well together.

I don't see you ejecting, nor have I seen it (ejections of either coach or female players) happening with any measurable frequency in my 13 years of coaching. You guys talk a lot about ejections, but then you admit you really don't do it.

Second point, I wonder if potential UC is a geographic thing. An event that is not acceptable in a lilly white softball state like Minnesota, might be standard practice in the hispanic culture that I coach in. The majority of our players, coaches and umpires are of hispanic heritage. Maybe we are a little rougher down here, which is why we are the top producer of football players in the country (if you ignore that appendage on the East coast.) Just a thought.

Bear in mind you're talking to a guy who has tossed out plenty of players and coaches from games, including his ex-gf's father. When I called back in Wisconsin, I tossed at least one every week or every other week. The pace has slowed down some since moving to the more "laid-back" South, but I still toss my fair share of players.

You're chasing arguments worse than my cat chases the laser pointer. At least I can't blame the cat...

[ronald]

[QUOTE=reccer;607046](intentionally going after slow thinking defensive player)

Would you go to UC if 1) the runner was running on the most appropriate path for the situation and 2) any contact made is relatively minor?

Your question is guilty of ambiguity.

So I will take some of its meanings.

Incidental: Nah.

R]elatively minor intentional contact.

Me: Coach, your player intentionally contacted the defensive player. The next time it happens, there will be an ejection.

You: It was minor and I wanted you to be aware of obstruction.

Me: I put my arm out, I saw it but your player deviated her path to make contact. That is USC. I have made my decision. Let's play ball. And I am walking to my position.

I made this call against an extremely well coached team. They went far, at least to the regional quarterfinals. Once I explained exactly what happened the discussion ended as he knew I knew what I was doing out there and had command of the rules and sound judgment.

Finally, my local UIC does not tolerate an iota of USC.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by reccer

Here's the sitch. 18U tourney of what should be experienced teams. You are BU. You know I coach my players to, let me clean this up a little bit, not shy away from contact with a defensive player. DD slaps an obvious twisty double to left (but getting to third is not a possibility) F3 is standing on/near the inside corner (where DD wants to step.) DD could go wider and avoid contact, but she is the leadoff hitter, she is our first base runner, and she gives a nudge to the much larger F3 as she is sailing by as a not so gentle reminder to get out of the runners path.

Her purpose in making contact was to draw your attention to where the defense is positioned without the ball and to remind the defender she needs to move out of the way. I'm not going to get off of bucket to come whine we should have been awarded third because despite Mike's shrill commentary, I do know the obstruction rule (been on the board 4 years and it is by far the most discussed topic.)

Yeah, you are going to come off that bucket because you are going to need to hear the warning I give your runner AND you. You've got my attention and it isn't going to be for an OBS call even though that call will have been made and appropriately administered.

As an aside to the young coach, I run drills at my practices to de-sensitize my girls from shying away from contact both defensively (head down field the grounder, don't worry about contact with the runner) and offensively, no stutter steps as we saw in the CWS

You either do not get it or have completely incompetent umpires. If you know the rule, you know that contact is not necessary. That means your only objective can be to make unnecessary physical contact with the opponent. You have no valid argument that supports your instruction to your players. There is no allowance for intentional contact with another player with the exception of making a tag or sliding into a base.

BTW, what is CWS?

[reccer]

CWS - College World Series. (where 3 or is it 4?) of our finest missed obstruction on what would have been the tying run in the biggest game of the year.

Give me the warning, throw me out, and know that you and your crew won't be invited back to do that TD's tourneys because you ejected one of his paying customers on a bull$hit call. Its the real world out here Mike, working Blues don't get to sit around and pontificate.