UMass and 3BL Extended

[wadeintothem]

Yesterday I was watching U mass vs someone on CBS College Sports Channel and the play I have stated on this forum many times happened...

Runners in scoring position, ball to RF with Runner coming home for a close play at the plate ----

The PU (a female I would have to google to get her name) as she saw the runner rounding 3rd and F2 set up for the play at the plate..

She went to 3rd Base Line Extended for the perfect call on the swipe attempt by F2.

The best position on that play, for the perfect vision, and a great call and reading of the developing play.

The D coach wanted the runner out for out of basepath - PU had perfect vision of that and replay showed that wasnt the case IMO.. although the announcers were clueless as to the rule and declared the runner should have been out.


IMO ASA ignores 3BL Extended to our detriment and for that play, that is the best position, and it is a teachable position for that play. It could be in a little diagram and everything

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

The PU (a female I would have to google to get her name) as she saw the runner rounding 3rd and F2 set up for the play at the plate..

She went to 3rd Base Line Extended for the perfect call on the swipe attempt by F2.

Did she "set up" in that position or "end up" in that position? Two different ideas. The SUIP does not endorse "setting up" in that position (emphasis at this year's regional clinic). By the manual, "Point of Plate" and then adjust to see the play. If she were to "end up" in that position after adjustment, well that's just dandy.

As this may have worked on this play, a few weeks ago (2 umpires for a DI game ), runner at third who takes off after the force play at first (on infield hit). PU (my partner) set up in 3BL extended, makes call with both feet off the ground because the runner was sliding into him.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Did she "set up" in that position or "end up" in that position? Two different ideas. The SUIP does not endorse "setting up" in that position (emphasis at this year's regional clinic). By the manual, "Point of Plate" and then adjust to see the play. If she were to "end up" in that position after adjustment, well that's just dandy.

As this may have worked on this play, a few weeks ago (2 umpires for a DI game ), runner at third who takes off after the force play at first (on infield hit). PU (my partner) set up in 3BL extended, makes call with both feet off the ground because the runner was sliding into him.

rofl.. now, thats one i wanna see pics or video of.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

rofl.. now, thats one i wanna see pics or video of.

I wish I had it on video, and trust me, I did do a little b@11 busting after the game. On the serious side, can you believe the defensive coach wanted to argue a "safe" call? Talk about your third-dimension view!

[wadeintothem]

Thats a good point. It depends on what you mean by set up..

IMO, when she saw how the play would develop, she went to 3BL. I think this play always developes this way and that is exactly where you should go when you see this developing. The only other realistic place to go would have been inside the diamond, which is terrible and where I think ASA would advocate the umpire going.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Thats a good point. It depends on what you mean by set up..

IMO, when she saw how the play would develop, she went to 3BL. I think this play always developes this way and that is exactly where you should go when you see this developing. The only other realistic place to go would have been inside the diamond, which is terrible and where I think ASA would advocate the umpire going.

You must remember the "base" system of the ASA: the two-umpire system (this is not a knock or ding on ASA, I consider myself a loyal, company man). Think of the other priorities of PU in 2-umpires . . . you are always returning to the plate from a holding position between home and third. 3BL is too difficult to obtain (even if it were a good position, which it isn't ).

The NCAA has a base system of 3-umpires and advocates "point of plate" and then adjusting. I don't know anything about the little ball umpires, but I've notice they have four umpires (at least the games on my television). I'm not sure what they advocate.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

As this may have worked on this play, a few weeks ago (2 umpires for a DI game ), runner at third who takes off after the force play at first (on infield hit). PU (my partner) set up in 3BL extended, makes call with both feet off the ground because the runner was sliding into him.

Doesn't sound like 3BL extended to me... Sounds more like 3BL Not Extended Enough.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Doesn't sound like 3BL extended to me... Sounds more like 3BL Not Extended Enough.

Humor here. At the school, Kevin is explaining how ASA does not have its umpires smothering plays like other orgs. He is leaning against a logo of the ...
Quite funny.

[ronald]

Can you guys explain how from 3bl extended you can tell if the swipe tag touched the backside of a player. Front side yes. But a tag could miss by an inch and look like a tag. Now you are guessing. This is or almost the exact same position one has at first base on a swipe tag.

What am I missing? I am confused.

Now, I saw a major league ump go on the first base line, batter's box area, catcher up the 3rd base line blocking side of plate and makes a swipe tag. Draw it on paper and see his line of vision. Sweet! When the tag was made, he was probably quite close to a 90 degree angle to point of tag. Now all four elements of the play are in front of you and you have the angle to see a microscopic tag or miss on the swipe. Can't see that from 3blxtnded. No way on this "green earth"

[wadeintothem]

No position offers a full 360 view of all positions possible of a play.

I think when discussing 3BL, it is simply a tool that should be in the tool box depending on how you read a play.

I call it catering to the lowest common denominator - ASA's mechanics are minimum and set to what can be taught to 36K umpires and does not recognize an advanced level of umpiring who could benefit from other tools in the tool box.

When 200 guys are sitting in a room stuffing fried bread in their face and wondering what they should do if a ball bounces off a UFO and lands in the field of play - they need nice canned mechanics that are simple, consistent, and easy to explain and grasp and easy to put in a power point with a little moving dude animated thereon.

This is detrimental to those who can adjust and are at a higher level of officiating.

3BL (on a wide turning base runner rounding 3rd with a ball coming from deep infield or outfield), Davis stance (when screened by a catcher), Foul side calls at 1B (when heavy traffic interferes with regular positioning) and even at times 3B, moving in closer on a tag play when necessary (4th dimension/crowding), Rimming (IMO in 3man only), BU rotating home in 2 man (when he is no longer employed), etc.

I think ASA mechanics should be expanded and shouldnt remove tools simply to stay with the canned porklike substance version of mechanics.

Whether for a particular play 3BL extended or 1B box is better - hey I'll go for that - you show me how and I think "great job" on adjusting to the developing play and reading your best spot.

Unfortunately, likely an evaluator would not.. so stand your ground where ASA has placed the X on the field and do the best you can and you will fare much better in eval and not have to explain yourself.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

Can you guys explain how from 3bl extended you can tell if the swipe tag touched the backside of a player. Front side yes. But a tag could miss by an inch and look like a tag. Now you are guessing. This is or almost the exact same position one has at first base on a swipe tag.

What am I missing? I am confused.

The bane of the 3BL is, IMO, a reliance on the play developing is a particular fashion. Unfortunately, adjustments by catcher and/or runner due to an off-target throw can place the umpire in a bad position.

Now, I saw a major league ump go on the first base line, batter's box area, catcher up the 3rd base line blocking side of plate and makes a swipe tag. Draw it on paper and see his line of vision. Sweet! When the tag was made, he was probably quite close to a 90 degree angle to point of tag. Now all four elements of the play are in front of you and you have the angle to see a microscopic tag or miss on the swipe. Can't see that from 3blxtnded. No way on this "green earth"

I believe I mentioned this a month or so ago, but wasn't sure if that was going to become the standard. Since then, I have noticed quite a few umpires moving around the LH BB for plays at home. The other night (think it was a Philadelphia game) there was a play at the plate where the runner was sliding straight into the plate while the catcher was trying to get a handle on the throw. At the 3BL position, the umpire would not see the ball come loose or whether the runner ever touched the plate. Luckily, the umpire did move up the 1BL and got a great view of the play.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Did she "set up" in that position or "end up" in that position? Two different ideas. The SUIP does not endorse "setting up" in that position (emphasis at this year's regional clinic). By the manual, "Point of Plate" and then adjust to see the play. If she were to "end up" in that position after adjustment, well that's just dandy.

As this may have worked on this play, a few weeks ago (2 umpires for a DI game ), runner at third who takes off after the force play at first (on infield hit). PU (my partner) set up in 3BL extended, makes call with both feet off the ground because the runner was sliding into him.

Now this is one I want to hear about tonight at the meeting - especially with a few Molson's downed.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Now this is one I want to hear about tonight at the meeting - especially with a few Molson's downed.

Switch to a better beer. It may help you enjoy the meeting more.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

You must remember the "base" system of the ASA: the two-umpire system (this is not a knock or ding on ASA, I consider myself a loyal, company man). Think of the other priorities of PU in 2-umpires . . . you are always returning to the plate from a holding position between home and third. 3BL is too difficult to obtain (even if it were a good position, which it isn't ).

The NCAA has a base system of 3-umpires and advocates "point of plate" and then adjusting. I don't know anything about the little ball umpires, but I've notice they have four umpires (at least the games on my television). I'm not sure what they advocate.

MiLB (and probably CCA too) says read the play and go to the best position, and they use two and three umpire crews. MLB uses four.

I've long agreed with Wade on this--if you have experience and know when to use it it's a great position. I've gone there twice in HS games this year and I had a great look at the tag both times.

[ronald]

Well, correct me if I am am wrong but ASA says start at a 90 degree to the tag and adjust as necessary. So I could envision an ump moving to the point of the plate extended and see the play adequately. Plus, I have done it.

New DVD (ASA Championship mechanics) says to adjust so as to have an unobstructed view.

Would I like to start at tip of plate and adjust? Yeah but when in Rome do as the Romans do.