Scoring Question
 

My daughter had a no-hitter going in a game. There was a player on second (by walk , and passed ball) with two outs. The next hitter hit a ground all between shortstop and third and the left fielder threw the girl out going to third. Does that get scored a fielders choice or a single.

I would think its a single... fielders choice is in my thinking a force play choice.

but then again, i'm just an umpire and i'm only worrying about the timing on the play.

I believe you'll find the definitive answer here: http://forum.officiating.com/softbal...-question.html

Fielder's choice.

I agree. Speaking NFHS rules, had the runner not been thrown out at third, the batter would have been credited with a hit. 9-3-2c.

Your daughter?
No hitter?

Is there even a question? Fielder's Choice all the way:D

(Besides, I believe that is the correct scoring)

Edited to add..

I stand corrected on my parenthetical comment.
My smart a$$ comment stands. ;-)

It's a hit!
 

Well, biased scoring aside, this was clearly a base hit.

The runner that was retired at third base was not forced. Had that runner remained at second base, the left fielder was not going to throw out the BR at first base.

Now if F5 or F6 had fielded the ball and was able to retire R1 between second and third, I'd rule a fielder's choice.

If F6 made a diving stop of the ball and it trickled away from her and the runner then tried to advance and was thrown out at third, I'd rule a base hit for the batter [F6 wasn't going to retire her at first] and a head's up assist/putout for F6/F5, respectively.

Ted

This rule indicates that the aattempt to put out another runner was unsuccessful, so I don't think applies here.

The whole concept of "fielder's choice" is just that - a fielder chooses to retire one of one or more runners. E.G. Bases loaded, 2 outs, ground ball to F5. Her choices are: step on third [runner out 5-U]; throw home for a force [runner out 5-2]; flip the ball to someone covering second base for a force [runner out 5-4]; or simply throw to first to retire BR 5-3.

If F5 dove for the ball, [assuming a difficult play here and no error charged] knocked it down, scrambled to pick it up and threw it to home, and the runner was safe, the official scorer would then decide if the fielder had a chance to get the runner at first base. If, in his/her opinion the BR would have beat the throw, it would be ruled a base hit.

Ted

Weird thing: None of my softball rule books define the term "fielder's choice" in the definition sections. I did check my baseball rule books (both major league rules and NFHS), and both have definitions for the term, and neither make mention of a runner being forced as a requirement for a fielder's choice.

So, speaking softball, my answer is: Don't know how this would be scored! I still tend to think it would be a fielder's choice, but that may be the baseball umpire in me talking.

The instances of fielders choice in the nfhs softball rulebook use force plays... Thats why im still leaning towards a single with a 3rd out on the DMC or DMR for trying to push to third with the ball less than (assuming) 60'-90' away.
Hate to take away a no hitter, but.... ok i don't really care but if i appear to care does that count?
gonna check the caseplays on this... like i don't have enough stuff to do!! ;)

Added to top:

Just looked further into baseball rules, and their use of the defintion "fielder's choice" in the scoring section makes mention it must be either the pitcher, catcher, or other infielder that plays on a runner attempting to advance. So in baseball, the OP is definitely a hit.

yeah but baseball is so "hard" to call... with all their rules and stuff. :D

Fielder’s Choice: A fielder fielding a ground ball and attempting to
put out a preceding base runner rather than the batter-runner at first when
a throw to first base would have put out the batter-runner.

A hit is credited to the batter when:

On a ball that reaches the outfield untouched by an infielder, unless
the ball should have been handled by an infielder with ordinary effort
(e.g., ball between the legs).

(Source; NCAA 2009 Softball Rules and Interpretations)

So, there is a decision that needs to be made in the OP. Could the ball have been played upon by an infielder? Could the outfielder have thrown the BR out at first? If there could have been no out at first, no matter what, then the batter is credited with a hit and F7 is credited with a putout. That seems to me to be the most likely outcome of the OP.

And decisions is why there's usually a PAID scorer at the major league, minor league, and big-time collegiate levels of baseball, and at the big-time collegiate levels of softball. They are PAID to make those decisions, just like we blues are PAID to make decisions on the field. Does anyone like getting PAID to decide stuff? :D

(It's Friday, and the smarta** in me just wanted to say something smarta**ed before the weekend dulls my mind for Monday morning thus the caps PAID!) :D

Yeah, and God help that poor student if s/he gets one wrong in the coach's mind!!! ;)

And in this economy, a PAY cut may just happen to the poor sap! ;) :D

Link to NCAA Softball Scoring Manual
 

The NCAA softball statisticians manual is an excellent resource for scoring-related questions. Most of the interpretations should apply to any level of softball.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats...s%20manual.pdf

I realize this is an umpires' forum, but scoring questions do arise on occasion, so I thought I would post this link.

And the PAID scorer at my city's minor league stadium has made some really questionable decisions. Not worse than the decisions I made in yesterday's game, though...;)

For which you were paid ;)

E-7 on the throw to the wrong base - no-hitter intact

:rolleyes:

thats a HIT all the way

Check 2009 NFHS Rule 9-3-2-c-Note -- They have it defined in the scoring and recordkeeping section :D

Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3.

I'm standing by my scoring as a base-hit. In most cases, consider the scoring as the defense's option of choosing which runner to retire. Example: w/ R1 on 1B and 2 outs, B2 grounds out to F6. F6 could have easily thrown to F3 to retire B2. But defense is taught to take the "safest" out when possible. So in this case, F6 simply runs over to 2B and steps on the base, forcing R1. B2 reached base on a FC.

Example: w/ R1 on 1B and no outs, B2 hits a soft fly ball to shallow right-center field. F8, F9, and F4 all converge on the ball. R1, unsure whether the ball will be caught or not, is half-way between first and second bases. B2 arrives as 1B as the ball hits the ground. F8 picks up the ball and throws to F6, retiring R1 on a force play. Unfortunately for B2, there was a runner on base. Had there been no runner, she would have had a base-hit, but this time, she's 0-1 reaching on a FC.

The 'playing on a preceding runner' part is usually associated with the defense's "choice" of either retiring the BR or another runner. With a runner on 3B and the infield in, B2 hits a sharp grounder to F6 as the runner breaks for home. F6 throws to F2 who tags out runner while BR reaches 1B. Score that a FC.

With a runner on 3B and the infield in, B2 hits a sharp grounder between F5 and F6. Runner trips over her own feet, falls, and then tries to score. F7, who was playing shallow throws to F2 who tags out the runner. Don't tell me you're going to score that as a FC! If you are, you'd better re-take Scoring 201 over again. :D

Ted

Okay, time to interject an "official" umpire response when it comes to a scoring question.

I don't care.

NFCA Fastpitch Manual has this:

"Credit a fielder's choice:

1. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner is forced out on the hit, or would have been forced out had no error occurred,

2. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner who is forced to advance, is called out on an appeal for missing the first base she was to advance to,

3 when a ball is put in play where a play is made on any lead runner and an out occurs, or an out would have occurred had no error taken place, or the runner is safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first, (....)"

{emphasis mine}

Item three seems to support my decision to score a FC. But if we still have differences of opinion, that's fine with me, too. :)

;)

Well, both teams were pretty exasperated with our performance, but at least we called it both ways. :p

Well, it is very hard to argue scoring protocol against someone referred to as "Stat-Man". But I'll still give it a shot.

"Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3. " Taken literally, this would mean that with a runner on 2B and a ball off the wall in CF that F8 recovers and throws to F2 and "plays on a preceding runner", that the batter would not be credited with a base hit.

Same thing on your #3 point above. Runner on 2B attempts to score on a batted ball hit to the outfield [aka a base hit] but is thrown out at home. No base hit for the batter? Don't think so.

This is one of those situations we had in Business Law I. We [students] always argued that "it wasn't fair", and the Professor always said "but it's the law". No, not that it was foul, necessarily.


Ted

Tru, here's the problem with each of your examples; every one includes a runner that has already safely advanced a base, and then is put out. That, clearly, isn't a fielder's choice.

But, the OP has a runner attempting to advance on the batted ball, that is put out before successfully advancing. At all. It may have been poor baserunning, but the rule quoted above (FC 3) makes this play a fielder's choice.

I hear you; if the runner stayed on 2nd, there is no play, and it's a hit. But the runner didn't stay on 2nd, stupidly attempted to advance, and was put out. The scoring rule makes that a fielder's choice.

Well, I think the softball rules are somewhat restrictive, so let's try the baseball rules logic.

10.05 Base Hits
A base hit is a statistic credited to a batter when such batter reaches base safely, as set forth in this Rule 10.05.
(a) The official scorer shall credit a batter with a base hit when:

(4) the batter reaches first base safely on a fair ball that has not been touched by a fielder and that is in fair territory when the ball reaches the outfield, unless in the scorer's judgment the ball could have been handled with ordinary effort;

(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;

In our original post, since the ball was hit to the outfield, the batter is credited with a hit. I believe the deciding factor in the two above scenarios would be that the ball in the outfield would likely not result in the fielder to retire BR at first base, but in the second it would except for the choice made by the defense to play on a different runner. That's pretty much the logic I'm agreeing with.

Ted

If my DD was pitching, it was obviously a FC. If she was batting ... base hit all the way! ;)

Yeah, I get the nepotism angle. But, Argo, what if you were the paid official scorer?? :eek:

I missed one of my league games somewhere along the line and learned that my team was no-hit the previous evening. Seems there was some debate about a ground ball, and defensive effort, and a runner reaching first base. My [visiting] team obviously scored it as a base hit. Unfortunately, the home team book is "official", so we "officially" had egg on our collective faces as a result.

Ted

I'd have to give it a hit. :(

I kept an unofficial book for 4 years of HS, 4 years of college, and 8 years of travel ball. My interp on the FC was that the fielder chose to make the play they did when they could have gotten the BR if they had chosen to. (Of course, there were some force plays where the defense got the out when they would never have had a chance at the BR. But those are FCs by definition.)

Curiosity Question: How do you note it in the book when the force at second is the third out?

Give it a rest! Jeez! http://static.mazdas247.com/smilies/beat-dead-horse.gif

Pretty much like any other notation. Could be something like 5-4 and the number 3 circled for the third out on the runner that was retired. The batter that hit the ball reached via FC.

Dakota, nice graphic. I don't care much for horses though, dead or alive. But I understand your point. You should just acknowledge that some umpires have interests on the other side of the backstop [hot moms notwithstanding]. :D

Ted

Shouldn't there be some blood splattering? :D