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-   -   Extra warm up pitches (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/52761-extra-warm-up-pitches.html)

SRW Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594789)
Your game; not his.
Steve, with all due respect, I have a fundamental problem with your statement here. This game is not our game as umpires. It's theirs - the players and coaches... I'm sure you're well aware of this.

stevegarbs Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRW (Post 594813)
Steve, with all due respect, I have a fundamental problem with your statement here. This game is not our game as umpires. It's theirs - the players and coaches... I'm sure you're well aware of this.
Thanks for saying this; as a softball coach and long-time football official, I found this statement hard to accept. The game belongs to the players. Coaches and umpires are there to make sure the players are doing it safely and fairly. It's not our game.

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegarbs (Post 594828)
Thanks for saying this; as a softball coach and long-time football official, I found this statement hard to accept. The game belongs to the players. Coaches and umpires are there to make sure the players are doing it safely and fairly. It's not our game.
Very true, but part of our responsibilities as umpires is to make sure the game moves along at a decent pace. If a coach employs tactics to hasten or delay a game, or to unfairly gain an edge over another coach, then that's when we need to step in.

It's going to have to be pretty obvious for me to do anything about this, though. As long as the game's progressing and it doesn't appear to be some cheap tactic to get more warm-ups, I'm not saying anything.

AtlUmpSteve Wed Apr 08, 2009 01:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 594798)
Well, if I've got a coach who appears to be on the ball, handles things in a timely manner, and does that only once, I've got no problem with it. It's allowable within the rules. If I get a whiff that the coach is trying to pull something, then I'll tell the pitcher to stop warming up while I deal with the coach.

But by rule, if we're engaged in handling substitutions with a coach, yeah, they can continue warming up. Good game management dictates otherwise, but it's written in black and white.
Read the black and white, though; it says "if the umpire delays the start of play". The umpire didn't, the coach did. If I have to, I will make the coach give me the substitution standing at home plate, and report it to the other team from there. The coach does not get a benefit for delaying.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not always a hard case about this. We are talking about the cases where we know what they are doing, and you say we have no options. The black and white is we do NOT have allow additional warmup pitches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRW (Post 594813)
Steve, with all due respect, I have a fundamental problem with your statement here. This game is not our game as umpires. It's theirs - the players and coaches... I'm sure you're well aware of this.
Poorly chosen wording on my part, I agree. What I meant was we manage the game, we don't allow the coach to manage (manipulate) us.

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 01:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594844)
Read the black and white, though; it says "if the umpire delays the start of play". The umpire didn't, the coach did. If I have to, I will make the coach give me the substitution standing at home plate, and report it to the other team from there. The coach does not get a benefit for delaying.
So you're saying that the process of handling substitutions is not a reason to allow extra warm-up pitches because the coach initiates the process? Then why is it specifically mentioned in the rulebook as an example of when we should allow the extra warm-up pitches? :confused::confused:

AtlUmpSteve Wed Apr 08, 2009 01:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 594847)
So you're saying that the process of handling substitutions is not a reason to allow extra warm-up pitches because the coach initiates the process? Then why is it specifically mentioned in the rulebook as an example of when we should allow the extra warm-up pitches? :confused::confused:
If you are confused, then you just aren't reading what I am saying. I said
Quote:
Don't get me wrong; I'm not always a hard case about this. We are talking about the cases where we know what they are doing, and you say we have no options. The black and white is we do NOT have allow additional warmup pitches.
It is that simple. If a coach does his job, and umpire does his job, it shouldn't take more than the 1 minute between innings; or more than 20-30 seconds between batters. If the umpire is sloooooooooooooooow, and there is a delay because the umpire is slooooooooooooooow, then the pitcher can use that time to take an extra pitch, or two. If both coach and umpire do their job, but doing their job takes a bit too long, then, yes, the pitcher can take another warmup pitch or two.

BUT, if the coach delays until the one minute is up, then wants to give the umpire his subs, that isn't the umpire delaying the game, so that clause does not have to apply. It isn't stated that anytime an umpire takes substitutions that the pitcher can take excess warmup pitches without penalty, nor does it say we should allow them. The rule uses that (handling substitutions) as one of several examples when we may allow them, and not penalize them.

And that's the difference; you are saying the black and white is that we have to allow it. The rule says we do not have to allow it, but we may, and gives some examples of when you might.

SRW Wed Apr 08, 2009 03:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594844)
Poorly chosen wording on my part, I agree. What I meant was we manage the game, we don't allow the coach to manage (manipulate) us.
:)

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 03:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594852)
If you are confused, then you just aren't reading what I am saying. I said

It is that simple. If a coach does his job, and umpire does his job, it shouldn't take more than the 1 minute between innings; or more than 20-30 seconds between batters. If the umpire is sloooooooooooooooow, and there is a delay because the umpire is slooooooooooooooow, then the pitcher can use that time to take an extra pitch, or two. If both coach and umpire do their job, but doing their job takes a bit too long, then, yes, the pitcher can take another warmup pitch or two.

BUT, if the coach delays until the one minute is up, then wants to give the umpire his subs, that isn't the umpire delaying the game, so that clause does not have to apply. It isn't stated that anytime an umpire takes substitutions that the pitcher can take excess warmup pitches without penalty, nor does it say we should allow them. The rule uses that (handling substitutions) as one of several examples when we may allow them, and not penalize them.

And that's the difference; you are saying the black and white is that we have to allow it. The rule says we do not have to allow it, but we may, and gives some examples of when you might.
I think that in practice, what you and I are saying are basically the same thing. If we're moving along at a decent pace, the coach isn't dawdling and neither is the PU, then extra pitches are acceptable. If I see the coach dawdling or appear to be employing some tactic to sneak a few extra warm-up pitches in there, then no, we're not allowing it.

I think we're both looking for something in each other's posts that just isn't there.

You know, that seems to happen a lot on this forum. Why is that? I'll admit that I'm not immune to it. Maybe it's just CYA... :)

wadeintothem Wed Apr 08, 2009 06:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 594847)
So you're saying that the process of handling substitutions is not a reason to allow extra warm-up pitches because the coach initiates the process? Then why is it specifically mentioned in the rulebook as an example of when we should allow the extra warm-up pitches? :confused::confused:
I believe at Nationals and definately at the HOF Qual and 18G sector last year that was definately the case in this area. BU was to monitor it and it was discussed at the pre tourney meeting. This is why I was confused at the begining of this thread.

CecilOne Thu Apr 09, 2009 08:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 594810)
Worked a HS game
Am I reading this correctly? :p

NEWS FLASH ?? :rolleyes: :)

I didn't know there was HS slow pitch in Delaware. :p

JefferMC Thu Apr 09, 2009 08:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 594945)
Am I reading this correctly? :p

NEWS FLASH ?? :rolleyes: :)

I didn't know there was HS slow pitch in Delaware. :p
Hey... yeah! Something did start buzzing around in my head when Irish said something about HS ball, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 594945)
Am I reading this correctly? :p

NEWS FLASH ?? :rolleyes: :)

I didn't know there was HS slow pitch in Delaware. :p
Actually, I have helped out in the past, also, just don't make a big deal out of it. Only work when there are more games than umpires which happens more than one would think since the local HS association does absolutely nothing to help coordinate schedules to facilitate proper coverage.

AtlUmpSteve Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 594945)
Am I reading this correctly? :p

NEWS FLASH ?? :rolleyes: :)

I didn't know there was HS slow pitch in Delaware. :p
State UIC. Knows, and capable of calling fastpitch; just not his preferred game. Could be way worse when they are short of qualified umpires, I think.

OK, also my friend. Still think what is above applies.

MichaelVA2000 Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 594991)
Actually, I have helped out in the past, also, just don't make a big deal out of it.
Were you helping out on the bases or behind the plate?

IRISHMAFIA Fri Apr 10, 2009 07:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000 (Post 595080)
Were you helping out on the bases or behind the plate?
Though I carry plate gear and am prepared to take the dish IF NECESSARY, I don't believe it is fair to teams for me to use their varsity league games to bone up on my game.


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