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BuggBob Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:13am

Extra warm up pitches
 
What is the word on extra warm up pitches in NFHS, ASA, NCAA? Pitcher pitches five warm-up pitches, but the umpire is engaged with umpire duties elsewhere and in not ready to proceed, can the pitcher continue to “warm-up?”

After warm-ups, if the catcher is temporarily unavailable, (tending to a minor first-aid issue) can the pitcher practice low speed pitches with F5? I told the pitcher to hold the ball; coach asked, “Why can’t she throw?” “This is the NCAA coach, she gets five and no more.” Was I right?

MichaelVA2000 Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuggBob (Post 594760)
What is the word on extra warm up pitches in NFHS, ASA, NCAA? Pitcher pitches five warm-up pitches, but the umpire is engaged with umpire duties elsewhere and in not ready to proceed, can the pitcher continue to “warm-up?”

Yes
Quote:

Originally Posted by BuggBob (Post 594760)
After warm-ups, if the catcher is temporarily unavailable, (tending to a minor first-aid issue) can the pitcher practice low speed pitches with F5? I told the pitcher to hold the ball; coach asked, “Why can’t she throw?” “This is the NCAA coach, she gets five and no more.” Was I right?

No

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:35am

Speaking ASA, if the umpire is engaged in other duties (substitutions, injuries, etc.), the pitcher is allowed to exceed the normal allotment of 5 (or 3 for SP). There's nothing in the book that says they HAVE to use F2 to catch the warm-up pitches, but I wouldn't feel right allowing another fielder to go behind the plate without the proper protective equipment. Personally, I think you'd be justified in prohibiting such action.

IF NCAA doesn't allow extra warm-up pitches (meaning "that's 5, and that's it, period.") when an umpire is engaged elsewhere, then I'd say what you did was merely preventative umpiring. Someone else will have to clarify that, though.

Oops, someone already did. :D

wadeintothem Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:39am

Where does it say they can get extra warm up pitches in ASA?

If the PU is engaged in other duties the BU should be monitoring that.

They get 5 pitches or 1 min, whichever is first.

Dakota Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:39am

No warm up pitches to any minor not wearing a helmet. I define "warm up pitches" as an underhand throw.

Stu Clary Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 594768)
Where does it say they can get extra warm up pitches in ASA?

Rule 6, section 9.

wadeintothem Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:56am

That is very interesting, at the Gold Sector BU was told to monitor that and I never really questioned it after that. It does make one wonder how an umpire could delay the game for a substitution, since it is normally the coaches doing the subbing, but its definately there. Thanks!

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 594773)
That is very interesting, at the Gold Sector BU was told to monitor that and I never really questioned it after that. It does make one wonder how an umpire could delay the game for a substitution, since it is normally the coaches doing the subbing, but its definately there. Thanks!

You're assuming a coach is smart enough to get all their substitutions to you smoothly. ;)

youngump Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 594776)
You're assuming a coach is smart enough to get all their substitutions to you smoothly. ;)

If the coach is particularly smart and wants extra warm-ups, he waits until the pitcher has thrown for and then comes out to stumble through his substitutions.
________
Live Sex

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 594779)
If the coach is particularly smart and wants extra warm-ups, he waits until the pitcher has thrown for and then comes out to stumble through his substitutions.

Yep! And there isn't anything we can do about it.

AtlUmpSteve Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 594767)
Speaking ASA, if the umpire is engaged in other duties (substitutions, injuries, etc.), the pitcher is allowed to exceed the normal allotment of 5 (or 3 for SP). There's nothing in the book that says they HAVE to use F2 to catch the warm-up pitches, but I wouldn't feel right allowing another fielder to go behind the plate without the proper protective equipment. Personally, I think you'd be justified in prohibiting such action.

IF NCAA doesn't allow extra warm-up pitches (meaning "that's 5, and that's it, period.") when an umpire is engaged elsewhere, then I'd say what you did was merely preventative umpiring. Someone else will have to clarify that, though.

Oops, someone already did. :D

In ASA and NFHS, if a pitcher takes excess pitches when the umpire is busy, that's the umpire's fault for not being ready. The only time I would refuse to allow the extra pitches in those games is when the coach waited to tell me about the substitutions, and I think he did that to get extra warm-up (that MAY be what Wade's direction was about).

In the NCAA, the pitcher may not throw excess warmup pitches; there is no provision except in "a substantial delay". If I am asked if it is okay, and I agree it has been a delay, then I have no problem granting the request. If not asked, there has been no permission or tacit approval.

Throwing to another infielder, however, isn't a warm-up pitch; the NCAA defines a warmup pitch (Rule 1-119) as "Any pitch delivered to the plate during a suspension of play." That means we cannot refuse it, even if underhanded, even if without a mask, as long as it isn't delivered to the plate. This is the same rule application that allows catchers anywhere except behind the plate to refuse to wear a mask; only pitches thrown to the plate are monitored.

The only other way to legally refuse the extra throws is if the game is ready to continue, and she is delaying the game.

AtlUmpSteve Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 594780)
Yep! And there isn't anything we can do about it.

The hell there isn't!! You can (and I do) refuse to allow the extra pitches when the coach delays the game. Your game; not his. The one minute between innings applies to everyone; it is a reasonable amount of time for the offense to get ready, and the defense to warm up. It is an equally reasonable amount of time for a coach to tell you about a normal substitution.

Granted, he may have 4 changes, and looks at the lineup card to be sure we are getting it right; fine. If he started that process in a reasonable time, it is what it is. If he waits the full minute, then comes to me, his delay, not the umpire's delay, so the exception does not apply.

IRISHMAFIA Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594789)
Granted, he may have 4 changes, and looks at the lineup card to be sure we are getting it right; fine. If he started that process in a reasonable time, it is what it is. If he waits the full minute, then comes to me, his delay, not the umpire's delay, so the exception does not apply.

And if the pitcher wants to toss a few to F5 during that period, fine by me. I have no problem with the pitcher toning their skills of throwing overhand to a base to get an out. Very few things are as disappointing as a ball back to the pitcher for the 3rd out only to have the pitcher throw it anywhere, but to the player covering the base. :D

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594789)
The hell there isn't!! You can (and I do) refuse to allow the extra pitches when the coach delays the game. Your game; not his. The one minute between innings applies to everyone; it is a reasonable amount of time for the offense to get ready, and the defense to warm up. It is an equally reasonable amount of time for a coach to tell you about a normal substitution.

Granted, he may have 4 changes, and looks at the lineup card to be sure we are getting it right; fine. If he started that process in a reasonable time, it is what it is. If he waits the full minute, then comes to me, his delay, not the umpire's delay, so the exception does not apply.

Well, if I've got a coach who appears to be on the ball, handles things in a timely manner, and does that only once, I've got no problem with it. It's allowable within the rules. If I get a whiff that the coach is trying to pull something, then I'll tell the pitcher to stop warming up while I deal with the coach.

But by rule, if we're engaged in handling substitutions with a coach, yeah, they can continue warming up. Good game management dictates otherwise, but it's written in black and white.

IRISHMAFIA Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:19am

Worked a HS game yesterday where the coach not only couldn't remember her changes, but had a hard time figuring out who was wearing what number.

About 45 seconds into the coach's memory lapse, the pitcher had used her warm-up allotment, I cleaned the PP, returned to my position, looked up and saw the coach FINALLY pull out a line-up card to help her.

The temps were in the low 40s with 20+ mph winds. There was no way I was telling this pitcher she had to just stand there.

I have a feeling this coach was the closest thing to an athletic female teacher at the school and was thrown into the coaching position. Team couldn't play for $hit, both pitchers were illegal and actually got worse as the game progressed.

I spent a portion of the game coaching the coaches of this team. Luckily, the opponent's staff understood as I kept them in the loop. The field did not have any lights and I wanted to get the game done while I could still feel my fingers and toes. :D

Told the assigner I need more money if I was going to umpire and coach at the same time.

SRW Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594789)
Your game; not his.

Steve, with all due respect, I have a fundamental problem with your statement here. This game is not our game as umpires. It's theirs - the players and coaches... I'm sure you're well aware of this.

stevegarbs Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRW (Post 594813)
Steve, with all due respect, I have a fundamental problem with your statement here. This game is not our game as umpires. It's theirs - the players and coaches... I'm sure you're well aware of this.

Thanks for saying this; as a softball coach and long-time football official, I found this statement hard to accept. The game belongs to the players. Coaches and umpires are there to make sure the players are doing it safely and fairly. It's not our game.

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevegarbs (Post 594828)
Thanks for saying this; as a softball coach and long-time football official, I found this statement hard to accept. The game belongs to the players. Coaches and umpires are there to make sure the players are doing it safely and fairly. It's not our game.

Very true, but part of our responsibilities as umpires is to make sure the game moves along at a decent pace. If a coach employs tactics to hasten or delay a game, or to unfairly gain an edge over another coach, then that's when we need to step in.

It's going to have to be pretty obvious for me to do anything about this, though. As long as the game's progressing and it doesn't appear to be some cheap tactic to get more warm-ups, I'm not saying anything.

AtlUmpSteve Wed Apr 08, 2009 01:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 594798)
Well, if I've got a coach who appears to be on the ball, handles things in a timely manner, and does that only once, I've got no problem with it. It's allowable within the rules. If I get a whiff that the coach is trying to pull something, then I'll tell the pitcher to stop warming up while I deal with the coach.

But by rule, if we're engaged in handling substitutions with a coach, yeah, they can continue warming up. Good game management dictates otherwise, but it's written in black and white.

Read the black and white, though; it says "if the umpire delays the start of play". The umpire didn't, the coach did. If I have to, I will make the coach give me the substitution standing at home plate, and report it to the other team from there. The coach does not get a benefit for delaying.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not always a hard case about this. We are talking about the cases where we know what they are doing, and you say we have no options. The black and white is we do NOT have allow additional warmup pitches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRW (Post 594813)
Steve, with all due respect, I have a fundamental problem with your statement here. This game is not our game as umpires. It's theirs - the players and coaches... I'm sure you're well aware of this.

Poorly chosen wording on my part, I agree. What I meant was we manage the game, we don't allow the coach to manage (manipulate) us.

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 01:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594844)
Read the black and white, though; it says "if the umpire delays the start of play". The umpire didn't, the coach did. If I have to, I will make the coach give me the substitution standing at home plate, and report it to the other team from there. The coach does not get a benefit for delaying.

So you're saying that the process of handling substitutions is not a reason to allow extra warm-up pitches because the coach initiates the process? Then why is it specifically mentioned in the rulebook as an example of when we should allow the extra warm-up pitches? :confused::confused:

AtlUmpSteve Wed Apr 08, 2009 01:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 594847)
So you're saying that the process of handling substitutions is not a reason to allow extra warm-up pitches because the coach initiates the process? Then why is it specifically mentioned in the rulebook as an example of when we should allow the extra warm-up pitches? :confused::confused:

If you are confused, then you just aren't reading what I am saying. I said
Quote:

Don't get me wrong; I'm not always a hard case about this. We are talking about the cases where we know what they are doing, and you say we have no options. The black and white is we do NOT have allow additional warmup pitches.
It is that simple. If a coach does his job, and umpire does his job, it shouldn't take more than the 1 minute between innings; or more than 20-30 seconds between batters. If the umpire is sloooooooooooooooow, and there is a delay because the umpire is slooooooooooooooow, then the pitcher can use that time to take an extra pitch, or two. If both coach and umpire do their job, but doing their job takes a bit too long, then, yes, the pitcher can take another warmup pitch or two.

BUT, if the coach delays until the one minute is up, then wants to give the umpire his subs, that isn't the umpire delaying the game, so that clause does not have to apply. It isn't stated that anytime an umpire takes substitutions that the pitcher can take excess warmup pitches without penalty, nor does it say we should allow them. The rule uses that (handling substitutions) as one of several examples when we may allow them, and not penalize them.

And that's the difference; you are saying the black and white is that we have to allow it. The rule says we do not have to allow it, but we may, and gives some examples of when you might.

SRW Wed Apr 08, 2009 03:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594844)
Poorly chosen wording on my part, I agree. What I meant was we manage the game, we don't allow the coach to manage (manipulate) us.

:)

NCASAUmp Wed Apr 08, 2009 03:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 594852)
If you are confused, then you just aren't reading what I am saying. I said

It is that simple. If a coach does his job, and umpire does his job, it shouldn't take more than the 1 minute between innings; or more than 20-30 seconds between batters. If the umpire is sloooooooooooooooow, and there is a delay because the umpire is slooooooooooooooow, then the pitcher can use that time to take an extra pitch, or two. If both coach and umpire do their job, but doing their job takes a bit too long, then, yes, the pitcher can take another warmup pitch or two.

BUT, if the coach delays until the one minute is up, then wants to give the umpire his subs, that isn't the umpire delaying the game, so that clause does not have to apply. It isn't stated that anytime an umpire takes substitutions that the pitcher can take excess warmup pitches without penalty, nor does it say we should allow them. The rule uses that (handling substitutions) as one of several examples when we may allow them, and not penalize them.

And that's the difference; you are saying the black and white is that we have to allow it. The rule says we do not have to allow it, but we may, and gives some examples of when you might.

I think that in practice, what you and I are saying are basically the same thing. If we're moving along at a decent pace, the coach isn't dawdling and neither is the PU, then extra pitches are acceptable. If I see the coach dawdling or appear to be employing some tactic to sneak a few extra warm-up pitches in there, then no, we're not allowing it.

I think we're both looking for something in each other's posts that just isn't there.

You know, that seems to happen a lot on this forum. Why is that? I'll admit that I'm not immune to it. Maybe it's just CYA... :)

wadeintothem Wed Apr 08, 2009 06:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 594847)
So you're saying that the process of handling substitutions is not a reason to allow extra warm-up pitches because the coach initiates the process? Then why is it specifically mentioned in the rulebook as an example of when we should allow the extra warm-up pitches? :confused::confused:

I believe at Nationals and definately at the HOF Qual and 18G sector last year that was definately the case in this area. BU was to monitor it and it was discussed at the pre tourney meeting. This is why I was confused at the begining of this thread.

CecilOne Thu Apr 09, 2009 08:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 594810)
Worked a HS game

Am I reading this correctly? :p

NEWS FLASH ?? :rolleyes: :)

I didn't know there was HS slow pitch in Delaware. :p

JefferMC Thu Apr 09, 2009 08:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 594945)
Am I reading this correctly? :p

NEWS FLASH ?? :rolleyes: :)

I didn't know there was HS slow pitch in Delaware. :p

Hey... yeah! Something did start buzzing around in my head when Irish said something about HS ball, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 594945)
Am I reading this correctly? :p

NEWS FLASH ?? :rolleyes: :)

I didn't know there was HS slow pitch in Delaware. :p

Actually, I have helped out in the past, also, just don't make a big deal out of it. Only work when there are more games than umpires which happens more than one would think since the local HS association does absolutely nothing to help coordinate schedules to facilitate proper coverage.

AtlUmpSteve Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 594945)
Am I reading this correctly? :p

NEWS FLASH ?? :rolleyes: :)

I didn't know there was HS slow pitch in Delaware. :p

State UIC. Knows, and capable of calling fastpitch; just not his preferred game. Could be way worse when they are short of qualified umpires, I think.

OK, also my friend. Still think what is above applies.

MichaelVA2000 Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 594991)
Actually, I have helped out in the past, also, just don't make a big deal out of it.

Were you helping out on the bases or behind the plate?

IRISHMAFIA Fri Apr 10, 2009 07:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000 (Post 595080)
Were you helping out on the bases or behind the plate?

Though I carry plate gear and am prepared to take the dish IF NECESSARY, I don't believe it is fair to teams for me to use their varsity league games to bone up on my game.

LIIRISHMAN Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:39pm

I know many of you here do upper level games(NCAA or Nationals) and you must enforce the rulebook however some of us are at HS level or below. While I do try to move the game along it does happen that the break in between is sometimes longer than an minute. I'm not out there with a stopwatch(I do have my old Timex with me when do time limited games :))as long as the teams are making a good faith effort to hustle in and out or in inclement(COLD) weather I'll give them an extra throw or two if they ask. I also think if you have a partner the BU should be counting warm up tosses if the HP is otherwise tied up.


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