New Official (Almost) with a Question

[FeetBallRef]

Folks, I am in the process of getting my softball license. Is it possible to catch a fly ball that has become dead for a out?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by FeetBallRef

Folks, I am in the process of getting my softball license. Is it possible to catch a fly ball that has become dead for a out?

If the ball's dead, it's dead for a reason (either someone's automatically out, or runners automatically advance, etc.). All play stops at that point.

So the short answer is "no."

[FeetBallRef]

Looking at the "BALL DEAD IMMEDIATELY" TABLES on page 47, Item "11 states "Fair ball over fence in flight or prevented by specator or player's detached equipment" is a Dead Ball (Reference 5-1-1f).

I really don't understand what this is saying, could someone elaborate PLEASE?

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by FeetBallRef

Looking at the "BALL DEAD IMMEDIATELY" TABLES on page 47, Item "11 states "Fair ball over fence in flight or prevented by specator or player's detached equipment" is a Dead Ball (Reference 5-1-1f).

I really don't understand what this is saying, could someone elaborate PLEASE?

dead ball... award all runners home plate.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by FeetBallRef

Looking at the "BALL DEAD IMMEDIATELY" TABLES on page 47, Item "11 states "Fair ball over fence in flight or prevented by specator or player's detached equipment" is a Dead Ball (Reference 5-1-1f).

I really don't understand what this is saying, could someone elaborate PLEASE?

If the batter hits an out-of-the-park home run, it is a dead ball with all four bases awarded. If the outfielder throws his glove to knock the home run down, or a fan reaches over the outfield fence to keep the ball on the field, it is still a dead ball with all four bases awarded.

[FeetBallRef]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

If the batter hits an out-of-the-park home run, it is a dead ball with all four bases awarded. If the outfielder throws his glove to knock the home run down, or a fan reaches over the outfield fence to keep the ball on the field, it is still a dead ball with all four bases awarded.

To understand the intent of the rule is that if a fan touches the ball, it is dead. If a batter throws his glove and hits the ball, it is dead. If the ball goes over the fence, it is dead even though it hasn't touched anything yet.

It appears that the first two deal with hitting something while the last one (the fence) deals with a plane boundary (like the goal line in football or a foul ball while in the air), are these correct assumptions on my part?

[AtlUmpSteve]

In actual practice, the ball must touch something on the other side, because outfielders can legally reach over and bring back a ball for an out if it is still in flight. The rule isn't that precise in the wording, however.

The secondary part is that an illegal act (fan interference or detached player equipment) that prevents the home run should be awarded (and treated the same) as a home run.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The secondary part is that an illegal act (fan interference or detached player equipment) that prevents the home run should be awarded (and treated the same) as a home run.

question: is this scored as a home run or a 4 base award? or are they the same darn thing?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

question: is this scored as a home run or a 4 base award? or are they the same darn thing?

An umpire would only care about it if they were working a game where there was a predetermined limit of home runs

Where there is no limit, it really doesn't make a difference.

[FeetBallRef]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In actual practice, the ball must touch something on the other side, because outfielders can legally reach over and bring back a ball for an out if it is still in flight. The rule isn't that precise in the wording, however.

I guess what I am struggling with is the Rule 5.1.1 [Dead Ball] wording that states Ball becomes dead immediately when a fair batted ball, which is on or over fair ground, goes over, through or wedges in the field fence.

This appears to be the equivalent of the over the cylinder in basketball and a kick going over the goal line in football. The ball appears to be dead immediately when it goes over the fence.

How can a fielder catch a dead-ball by reaching over the fence and it still be a catch. I can't find any other rules that support this nor can I find a case book play which supports this. I took at look at the ASA, NCAA, and Pro-Baseball rules and they don't have such a dead-ball rule.

If a catch is supposed to happen, why wouldn't the rules reflect that the ball wouldn't be dead until it hits something in dead-ball territory???

[greymule]

"Goes over" is interpreted to mean "hits something on the other side." It does not indicate anything like breaking the plane of the fence or, as in basketball, being in the cylinder. A ball isn't over the fence until it hits something.

A few years ago, ASA recognized this ambiguity and revised its rule about a ball hitting the glove and then going over the fence. The revision covered a ball that is already "over" the fence when it hits the glove (ie, the fielder reaches beyond the fence and hits it). Most people had interpreted the rule correctly but, probably in response to some sort of protest, ASA spelled out in black and white that either way, it's a four-base award.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by FeetBallRef

. . . If a catch is supposed to happen, why wouldn't the rules reflect that the ball wouldn't be dead until it hits something in dead-ball territory???

Because the rules are the skeleton of umpiring that must be fleshed out with authoritative interpretations. The literal meaning of many rules is often refined by their customary application. See AtlUmpSteve's post above for the customary application of an outfielder catching a ball after it has broken the plane of the outfield fence.

[FeetBallRef]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Because the rules are the skeleton of umpiring that must be fleshed out with authoritative interpretations. The literal meaning of many rules is often refined by their customary application. See AtlUmpSteve's post above for the customary application of an outfielder catching a ball after it has broken the plane of the outfield fence.

I guess since the rules are skeletons that must be fleshed out with authoritative interpretations, we Newbies don't have a chance to understand the rules that aren't written correctly or when case book plays aren't available for support.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by FeetBallRef

I guess since the rules are skeletons that must be fleshed out with authoritative interpretations, we Newbies don't have a chance to understand the rules that aren't written correctly or when case book plays aren't available for support.

Maybe the skeleton/flesh metaphor is misleading. I'd say at least 90% of the body of rules knowledge is contained in the language of the rules. By your screen name and your join date, I'd bet you are an experienced soccer ref who uses more than their words in applying the rules.

Hope for newbies lies in asking questions and monitoring a good umpire forum and learning from mistakes. I admire your effort. I try hard, but I have few if any perfect games under my belt.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by FeetBallRef

I guess since the rules are skeletons that must be fleshed out with authoritative interpretations, we Newbies don't have a chance to understand the rules that aren't written correctly or when case book plays aren't available for support.

The rule book is merely the foundation. Every possible situation, experienced or something stumbled across in the future, cannot be addressed in black and white.

The Newbie needs to attend clinics and schools on a regular, never-ending basis.