Just Venting....

[rjhouchin]

Accept: To receive something offered

[Dakota]

In the context of your statement,

Officials who refuse to accept (1) that they too make errors and (2) that those errors do have an effect on the game.

that makes no sense whatsoever.

What, exactly, do you want umpires to do to demonstrate this "acceptance?"

[Skahtboi]

I am trying my best to stick to Gary's advice of not feeding the trolls, but I have really been wanting to hear the answer to Dakota's question.

Scott

[walkerbard]

Forgive me for sticking my nose into this "discussion"
especially my being a player here in an officials
forum. As a player, I NEVER complain about judgment
calls, ONLY rules. I may show some displeasure about
a close call but will never say anything. I realized a
long time ago that with calls, as with most anything
else in life, 2 people can see the same thing and
see it 2 different ways, even when it SEEMS obvious.
In the NFL where they have super slow motion replay
people still can see it differently. Umpires don't have
the luxury of replay and have to make quick decisions
sometimes in the "blink of an eye." Sometimes they're
not the right call, but most of the time they are.
Every one is human so I don't have a problem with calls.
I DO, however, have a problem with umpires who don't
KNOW the rules. Our league pays about $40 a game per ump (ASA certified). The way I see it is that the ONLY
thing we should EXPECT for that $40 is that the ump
knows the rules (especially the basic ones.) After that,
perhaps that they make an effort to at least be in
position to make the right call. I don't EXPECT EVERY judgement call to be right,(though in a perfect world, we're paying for that too.) Now I am fully aware that most PLAYERS are usually quite lacking in the knowledge of
the rules, but they aren't being paid to know them.
Anyway, though I don't have the same level of bitterness
that "RJ" appears to have, I do understand his point
about "arrogance." I just had a case in a game where
a player tagged up on a juggled fly ball. The play wasn't
appealed and had no effect on the game but one of
my teamates asked the HP ump about it between innings;
wanting to know if the runner leaves on the catch
or when it 1st touches the glove. The HP ump (I give
him credit here) wasn't sure so he asked the field
ump who incorrectly stated "on the catch." I then
told him I thought he might be mistaken. He then
CHALLENGED me to a bet by asking "how much do I have in my
wallet." (I know he wasn't interested in the money.)
So, out came my trusty rulebook and I SHOWED him.
Of course since my ASA rulebook was dated 1997
(as if the tag up rule has changed since it's inception
let alone the last 5 years) he still wouldn't acknowledge
his error. And this man was at least 60 years old
so he should have seen this situation countless
times on the field. At least the HP ump recognized
my 1997 book and thanked me later for pointing it
out to him.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by walkerbard
Our league pays about $40 a game per ump (ASA certified). The way I see it is that the ONLY
thing we should EXPECT for that $40 is that the ump
knows the rules (especially the basic ones.) After that,
perhaps that they make an effort to at least be in
position to make the right call. I don't EXPECT EVERY judgement call to be right,(though in a perfect world, we're paying for that too.) Now I am fully aware that most PLAYERS are usually quite lacking in the knowledge of
the rules, but they aren't being paid to know them.
Anyway, though I don't have the same level of bitterness
that "RJ" appears to have, I do understand his point
about "arrogance." I just had a case in a game where
a player tagged up on a juggled fly ball. The play wasn't
appealed and had no effect on the game but one of
my teamates asked the HP ump about it between innings;
wanting to know if the runner leaves on the catch
or when it 1st touches the glove. The HP ump (I give
him credit here) wasn't sure so he asked the field
ump who incorrectly stated "on the catch." I then
told him I thought he might be mistaken. He then
CHALLENGED me to a bet by asking "how much do I have in my
wallet." (I know he wasn't interested in the money.)
So, out came my trusty rulebook and I SHOWED him.
Of course since my ASA rulebook was dated 1997
(as if the tag up rule has changed since it's inception
let alone the last 5 years) he still wouldn't acknowledge
his error. And this man was at least 60 years old
so he should have seen this situation countless
times on the field. At least the HP ump recognized
my 1997 book and thanked me later for pointing it
out to him.

JW,

If your league pays $40 for an "ASA certified umpire", you've been taken as there is no such animal. There are clinics, schools, tests and meetings, but the only thing you need to become an ASA umpire is your registration fee.

Now, local organizations do have certain requirements to work games in their world, but that doesn't guarantee much of anything.

I've been to State, Regional and National Schools & Clinics, I am an instructor at the State level, have worked National Championship Tournaments, but all I have are certificates of attendence or achievement. To the best of my knowledge, no one has a certificate which states they are an "ASA Certified" umpire.

Meanwhile, you are correct about the play and it is such a basic rule, the umpires should be embarrassed as to not be aware of it.

[walkerbard]

Thanks for your reply M.R.
Interesting. You mean there are no tests
to pass to be qualified for ASA rules
to become and umpire? Just a registration
fee? WOW! I guess that accounts for why
I've encountered so many umpires over the
years that I thought might be a little
lacking on rule knowledge. I think I'll
look into this. Thanks for the info.

[Dakota]

In Minnesota, ASA umpires are required to attend a rules clinic. The state umpire schools, which include field instruction along with the rules clinic, are free, are offered at various locations around the state and are open to all who wish to attend (even coaches).

In the St Paul Metro, ASA umpires are required to take a rules test.

You'll find the training offered to ASA umpires is excellent. Actual requirements, though, vary by location.

[Skahtboi]

Free? Did you say free?

We have to pay a nominal fee around here for the state clinics, but they are quite reasonable. It is also a requirement to attend one every other year, I believe, in my association. We also take the ASA rules test, not to mention the Fed test, the USSSA test, and the DSI test.

I also agree that ASA provides the best ongoing training for umpires around.

Scott

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by walkerbard
Forgive me for sticking my nose into this "discussion"
especially my being a player here in an officials
forum.

No apologies needed JW. You are more than welcome here.

As a player, I NEVER complain about judgment
calls, ONLY rules. I may show some displeasure about
a close call but will never say anything.

Only human!

Umpires don't have the luxury of replay and have to make quick decisions sometimes in the "blink of an eye." Sometimes they're not the right call, but most of the time they are.

Agreed. Everyone of us is trying our damndest to make the "right" call, but sometimes for whatever reason we do blow a call. All we can do is try to call them like we see them.


Every one is human so I don't have a problem with calls.
I DO, however, have a problem with umpires who don't
KNOW the rules.

SO DO I!!!

Our league pays about $40 a game per ump...

That's pretty respectable pay! Is this for slow pitch?

The way I see it is that the ONLY thing we should EXPECT for that $40 is that the ump knows the rules (especially the basic ones.) After that, perhaps that they make an effort to at least be in position to make the right call.

You should get all of this from anyone who ever dons an umpire's uniform, regardless of renumeration!

I just had a case in a game where a player tagged up on a juggled fly ball...ramma, ramma, ramma!

That is a pretty basic, and most rookie umps would have been able to tell you this. I agree with you on this. However, during the game was not the time to bring out the trusty rule book and prove him wrong. If this were on my field, whether I was right or wrong in my interpretation of the play, I would have had no choice but to send you packing. That is making it personal, and in the eyes of many, attempting to show up the umpire. (Of course, I wouldn't have been juvenile enough to challenge you to a bet to begin with.) On the other hand, had this been after the game, I would have not only listened to you, but also looked up any interpretation in the current rule book, and had I been wrong would have gladly admitted my error, and committed that piece of info to memory. Had you approached me like an adult, complete with mutual respect, and I was wrong, I would have done all of the above plus probably offered to buy you a cold adult beverage.

At least the HP ump recognized my 1997 book and thanked me later for pointing it out to him.

Good. Sounds like he is probably out there for all the right reasons. Thanks for sharing this with us.

Scott

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Skahtboi
Free? Did you say free?

Well, it's included in our registration fee, but in fact, anyone can attend (they only check if you have paid if you want the ASA card, rule book, etc.), and you can attend the full state school for no additional charge. In fact, you can attend every state school if you want to.

This is all put on by the Minnesota Sports Federation, the official ASA body in the state.

If anyone is interested, they can find out all about it at http://www.msf1.org/

Registration is $40.

[walkerbard]

Thanks for your reply/comments Scott.
The $40 a game fee is for modified fast leagues
in my area. Some are less but most (for ASA)
are in the $30-40 range. As you pointed out,
fee or no fee shouldn't matter when you put
on the uniform. However, you might be surprised
at how many umps (1 ump games) won't wander more
than 5 feet or so from home plate to make a
call in the field. This leaves them open to
more mistakes and consequently, more arguments.
Anyway, as for the "trusty rule book" incident,
that book wouldn't have left my bag if I hadn't
been challenged to a bet. I know better than that.
But this guy was SO SURE of himself, he even
ENCOURAGED me to take out the book. So I did.
(by the way, can anyone tell me where I can get
a copy of a 2002 ASA rulebook. I can't find one
anywhere in stores or on the net.) Anyway, you
sound like a pretty good ump and a decent guy
Scott. Anyone who would offer to buy me a "cold
beverage" under any circumstance can't be too bad.
Thanks.

[Skahtboi]

JW:

Have you checked out http://www.asasoftball.com? If they are not listed in the publications, just hit the contact button and leave them a quick email telling them what you are looking for. Someone should get back to you in a reasonable amount of time.

Scott

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by walkerbard
Thanks for your reply M.R.
Interesting. You mean there are no tests
to pass to be qualified for ASA rules
to become and umpire? Just a registration
fee? WOW! I guess that accounts for why
I've encountered so many umpires over the
years that I thought might be a little
lacking on rule knowledge. I think I'll
look into this. Thanks for the info.

I didn't say that. I said to be a registered ASA umpire, you need only pay the registration fee to the local ASA organization.

Now, most organizations take pride in their work and have their individual requirements.

In DE, the registration is $35 which includes the rule book, umpire manual, bat ring, insurance, etc. Everyone is required to attend the State School in their first three years of membership. The school cost $15 which includes a school shirt. There are annual state clinics offered in each county at no charge to anyone who wishes to attend.

At the association level, each umpire is required to attend a clinic every year, take the test every year and attend association meetings approx every two weeks. The meeting attendence is often overlooked as it is a weeknight and we still have to cover games.

But no where have I ever seen where ASA certifies an umpire. I have been told that in a particular state, the ASA umpires can obtain "certification" by meeting the requirements of 2 years of ASA registration, passing the test with at least a score of 75%, and pay an extra $15 over the registration. They must be "certified" to be qualified to work championship play (States/Qualifiers).