Just Venting....

[Bandit]

First of all let me state that I am both Federation and a ASA Umpire and am clearly prejudice. As I believe it has been previously stated in this forum or on others ASA has one of the best training for it's umpires, overall. I have not done any coaching for over 2 years and when I did, it was at the age level of 8 & under. So When a family member who coaches 12 and under club ball recently had some surgery asked me to fill in on the sidelines the last couple weekends and my schedule was empty (summer tournamnets, ASA, in Indiana don't start until the first weekend in June or after High school ball is done)I gladly accepted. Needless to say the organizing groups putting the tournaments on were not ASA. I am not saying by any means that ASA is perfect, we all know it's not, I'm just prejudice like I said before.
I saw things the last couple of week-ends I truly believe will make me a better umpire. Like, does anyone ck bats and helmets anymore?, Since when can umpires have a conversation on a cell phone from the "B" postion?, has the inside out, outside in theory been changed and I miss that memo?, does anyone call illegal pitches anymore?, is the plate still a part of fair territory?
I have seen comments made also on this forum about how parents need to step onto our side of the lines for once to get a feeling of the umpires judgement, I am now supporting the idea that maybe we need to step onto fans side if we have not been given that chance thru our own children. ( My children are 3 and 1 so I have a couple of years to go).
Thanks for this oppurtunity to vent...

[tulsablue]

We had a Hall of Fame Qualifier this past weekend in the Tulsa Area and we checked Bats and Helmets. I believe it is a safety issue. As for umpire mistakes what always gets me is coaches make mistakes as do players hundreds of time more during a game then we will yet we are under the microscope I cannot figure that one out? As for the cell phone we had an umpire who did that I told him I would hold onto it till his set was over. That is very unprofessional. Which brings me to another point of professionalism diminishing in the Umpiring ranks and greed taking over? Does anyone see this like I do?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by tulsablue
We had a Hall of Fame Qualifier this past weekend in the Tulsa Area and we checked Bats and Helmets. I believe it is a safety issue. As for umpire mistakes what always gets me is coaches make mistakes as do players hundreds of time more during a game then we will yet we are under the microscope I cannot figure that one out? As for the cell phone we had an umpire who did that I told him I would hold onto it till his set was over. That is very unprofessional. Which brings me to another point of professionalism diminishing in the Umpiring ranks and greed taking over? Does anyone see this like I do?

Daily and not just in softball, but life in general.

[rjhouchin]

Both as a player and as a coach, not only were my errors always apparent and acknowldged, they frequently had a direct effect on the outcome of the game.

What annoys me most about officials is not that they make errors but that they refuse to admit (acknowledge) that they make them and refuse to accept that those errors have an effect on the outcome of the game.

I have been playing, coaching and umpiring for 50 years involving hundreds of games each year. In that time, only once did an umpire ever admit a mistake to me. I'm sorry coach, I missed it is all it took. I said thank you and returned to the dugout. There was nothing more to be said.
I accept that officials are human and accept that they are capable, as I am, of making an error. Why is it that they can not do the same?

[Skahtboi]

Robert:

I am not exactly sure what you are getting at with this post.
I don't know of any officials who aren't aware that there are times when they make mistakes. I blow a call myself every once in a while. Everyone does. However, what I am reading in your post is that you don't like the fact that during the game they fail to come over to you and tell you as a coach that they may have missed that call. Why should they? They are arbiters of the game. They are not answerable to either coach, but rather are answerable to themselves, the code that they are calling under, the body and association that sanctions them, and to the integrity of the sport.

I never have coaches, who holler things out on the field that prove they don't know the sport, coming over to me and saying something like, "sorry Blue, I know that what I said to you earlier indicates that I have no grasp on the rules of the game." I don't expect it. And no umpire should ever have to apologize for any of his actions on the field. The average umpire, in one hour of play, makes anywhere from 50 to 150 interpretations of play, based on both judgement and the application of the rules. If he misses one call in that same amount of time, that makes his/her job performance for the hour around 99%. In most jobs, that would be grounds for promotion or reward or a bonus of some sort. Why do you feel that for this kind of a job performance an umpire should be apologetic? Get real. The only thing that any umpire owes to you as either a coach or a player is to do his absolute best at applying the rules, being in position to make the call, and applying his judgement wisely on the field. That's it, nothing else! Nearly everyone that I know of who are in the field of sports officiating do exactly this.


Scott

[rjhouchin]

Why does it not surprise me that you don't know what I am getting at. No where in my post does it say anything about expecting an official to apologize during a game (or afterwards for that matter). Your response is typical of the arrogance I have experienced from officials for 50 years, namely the outright refusal to admit that, like the rest of us mortals, they too make errors. It is a part of the game and I have always accepted that. The quality of officiating his gone done, signigicantly, over the last twenty years, at all levels, including at the professional level thereby severly diminishing the integrity of all sports. One only has to look at a pro basketball game for a few minutes these days to see them walking all over the court, palming the ball, etc. It has become a joke.

When I first became involved in sports, the first thing my father did was make me learn the rules before I could participate. I read the rule book several times a season and my copies are dog eared, highlighted, underlined and heavily used. I have never hollered at an official publicly with the exception of one occassion. In the final game of a regional qualifier for nationals (the winner to go to nationals) with the final out at the plate with two strikes, the plate umpire missed the batter swinging at the next pitch. Now I have been behind the plate and I understand that this is actually possible, however, the
field umpire also missed it. To add insult to injury, it happened again on the next pitch. On the next pitch
(strike 5) we had a dropped third strike, the batter advanced to first, scored to tie the game and our team lost in extra innings. I said to the officials, "I am going to send you a video tape of that and a white cane to watch it with." We actually had video of the incident which clearly showed the batter swinging completly around, twice. You make an extremely generous and self serving assumption that you only make one mistake a game. I wish that were true. It would be a significant improvement over what I have seen these last twenty years. It has become so poor that I for one would rather pick a parent out of the stands from each team and use them. The "trained" officials are of no value whatsoever.

The average cost, per family, for a year of travel ball here in California is around $ 9,000.00 per player. We had a full year of effort and about $ 150,000.00 in costs riding on those calls. We deserved better than we got.

That was only one of many. I actually had an official say to me, during one game, what the hell, they are only girls.
I pulled my team off the field.

I might add that, in all of youth sports, the only ones on the field who are being paid are the officials. When you take my money, you owe me a better job than we are getting.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Hmmmmmmmm........

You come on an officials board and gripe about officiating? Did you expect that we would bow down to you because you have coached for 20 years......

Well........for the record......most of the people here have played, coached, umpired for much longer than that............grin

I along with most guys/gals who post here will admit to booting a call.........

Your response is typical of the arrogance I have experienced from officials for 50 years, namely the outright refusal to admit that, like the rest of us mortals.

We are all mortals..........I make boo boo's.......and always will........but not too often........and I bet that I make less mistakes than you or your team.........for example:

Did your team execute a perfect:....hit and run/bunt/sac/stolen base/squeeze play/....etc. etc.

So you see.......no one is perfect.......

don't criticize us..............grin

Joel

[rjhouchin]

Registered: Aug 2000
Posts: 417
Hmmmmmmmm........

You come on an officials board and gripe about officiating? Did you expect that we would bow down to you because you have coached for 20 years......

I have learned not to expect much from officials.
You lived up to that. If you go back and read my initial post, all that I asked was that the officials stop claiming to be superhuman and simply admit to mortal mistakes like the rest of us. Seems simple enough. Evidently you missed it. In addition, in my initial post, I stated I have played, coached and officiated for 50 years.... GRIN
Your derogatory remark above about 20 years of coaching is again evidence that you missed it. I sincerely doubt that "most of the people here..." have been at it for much longer than 50 years.

Well........for the record......most of the people here have played, coached, umpired for much longer than that............grin

I along with most guys/gals who post here will admit to booting a call.........

I applaud that. As I said, in 50 years, I heard it only once.

Your response is typical of the arrogance I have experienced from officials for 50 years, namely the outright refusal to admit that, like the rest of us mortals.

We are all mortals..........I make boo boo's.......and always will........but not too often........and I bet that I make less mistakes than you or your team.........for example:

Did your team execute a perfect:....hit and run/bunt/sac/stolen base/squeeze play/....etc. etc.

So you see.......no one is perfect.......

don't criticize us..............grin

Why not? You don't hesitate to criticize those of us
who VOLUNTEER OUR TIME.... grin

Joel, I wish you nothing but the best. Any official willing to admit they make mistakes, I take my hat off to.

Hope to run into you on the field sometime.

Best Regards,

Bob

Joel






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[ntxblue]

Originally posted by rjhouchin
I might add that, in all of youth sports, the only ones on the field who are being paid are the officials. When you take my money, you owe me a better job than we are getting.
[/B]

Robert,

I applaud you for your dedication to the sport. Softball wouldn't be here for any of us if that dedication didn't exist.

Please don't lump all officials into one basket. I try my best not to do that with coaches & parents. We all make mistakes and naturally we ALL try to limit them. We sure don't make them on purpose!!

I'm sorry that you don't feel you are getting a fair value for your dollar. Most of us are not in it for the money. If we were after money, we could probably make more flipping burgers. I rarely have shown a monetary profit from my years of umpiring. Equipment, uniforms, training, and travel eat away most opportunites for a profit. Advanced school this year alone will cost me $800 plus a weeks vacation. I do it because I want to become the best umpire I possibly can.

Unlike for many teams, fundraisers for umpires aren't very popular! But I sure have had some wonderful experiences and tremendous memories.

Gary

[Skahtboi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rjhouchin
Your response is typical of the arrogance I have experienced from officials for 50 years, namely the outright refusal to admit that, like the rest of us mortals, they too make errors.

That's funny, Robert, apparently you missed the line in my post where I admitted to occaisionally booting a call, and I also stated that I know of no official who would say that he or she never blows a call once in a while. But of course, you were so eager to slam me for responding to you, and to call me "arrogant," that I can understand how that may have slipped your all too observant eyes.

The quality of officiating his gone done,(sic) gnigicantly,(sic) over the last twenty years, at all levels, including at the professional level thereby severly diminishing the integrity of all sports. Your reactionary side is showing here Bob. Funny, with more and more clinics being given and attended, I strongly feel that the level of officiating in amatuer sports has greatly improved since the days that I was a player. Then, most officials at the rec league level were unskilled volunteers.

When I first became involved in sports, the first thing my father did was make me learn the rules before I could participate. Your father is to be commended.

I read the rule book several times a season and my copies are dog eared, highlighted, underlined and heavily used. Sounds like the rule books of most officials that you will meet on this board.

I have never hollered at an official publicly with the exception of one occassion. I, too, have coached as well as umpired for many years, and I have never yelled at any official. I have been as high as a National Tournament with my 16U team a few years back, (Dixie World Series, 1998) and never would have dreamed of yelling at, demeaning, or, for that matter, blaming the officials for any loss that my team may have suffered. My respect for the game is too great. (That is why I umpire!)

You make an extremely generous and self serving assumption that you only make one mistake a game. Do you know me? Have you ever seen me umpire a single game? Talk about making self-serving assumptions!!!
I wish that were true. It would be a significant improvement over what I have seen these last twenty years. What happened to 50? It has become so poor

Quite fixated on that aren't you Bob?! I am getting the picture here, the more you talk. You are one of those coaches who are unable to take responsibility for your team, and therefore look for the same scapegoat that all of those of your ilk go for, the official. Yeah, Bob, we are used to being "targets" for your pointed barbs. If you would quit looking to blame anyone, sit back, look and listen, you might actually learn a few things. Fifty years living in ignorance is still fifty years living in ignorance. You haven't gained anything, least of all the experience that you are implying that you have.

that I for one would rather pick a parent out of the stands from each team and use them. Then do so. IF, as you say, you have actually umpired, then you know exactly what you will get. Someone who has no concept of the rules or their application. This very comment leads me to seriously doubt that you have ever seen a day of training to be a sports official in any capacity.

The "trained" officials are of no value whatsoever. Again, you are showing your complete and utter lack of knowledge. NO VALUE?? So...you would be completely happy taking your travel team around and paying all those big bucks, and not have a single official on the field? How long would that be fun? Besides, who would you have to kick around without all of those incompetent umpires?


The average cost, per family, for a year of travel ball here in California is around $ 9,000.00 per player...blah, blah, blah Same all over the nation. Doesn't make you special. Many of us have schilled over these kinds of bucks year after year. I did it for many years, and would gladly do it again, not to win, but to give my daughter all of the wonderful experiences she had. There are many on this board who do the same with their children.

I actually had an official say to me, during one game, what the hell, they are only girls. I pulled my team off the field.

IF this is true, and as you can tell by now, I am having trouble believing a lot of what you are telling me, then you are to be commended for this. No official should ever treat his responsiblity so frivolously. Everyone on this board will agree with this, I am sure. That is why we come here, to improve our skills as officials.

I might add that, in all of youth sports, the only ones on the field who are being paid are the officials. Not always. I volunteer my time for charity benefits..etc every year.

When you take my money, you owe me a better job than we are getting.

Bob...if I ever take your money, I guaran-damn-tee you that I will do the absolute best job that I am physically capable of. I won't go in to bragging on what that has gotten me so far in the way of recognition, but it is the best that I can do. What more can you ask for? Blood from a turnip? Let's drop that 99% job performance rate down to 95 or even 90 (though umpires with a 90% job performance rate will not last long), that is still better than the job performance rate that you get in nearly every other sector of life, Bob. But yet you continue to persecute, and will continue to do so, until you feel that you have ground your axe sufficiently. Unfortunately for youth sports, your kind are way too prevalent. I also know that as far as you are concerned, my words are falling on deaf ears. So...at this point I will wish you the best in all of your endeavors, and merely agree to disagree with you.

Incidentally, if the officiating is so bad in California, come on out to Texas. There are many fine officials here, some of which I feel fortunate to have the opportunity to call with. In the Metroplex alone, there are scores of absolutely fantastic officials for the sport of softball alone. Do they blow a call once in a while. Absolutely. Does that make them imcompetent or self-serving? Far from it! I hope that someday you find happiness.


Scott

[ntxblue]

Scott,

Somebody found your button. Beware of the "Trolls"(grin). It's refreshing to know that you are passionate about your craft.

Gary

[rjhouchin]

Thank you Gary.

I won't prod Scott with a response.

Bob

[rjhouchin]

Scott:

I tried to send you a private response instead of a public one but you do not accept them.

First of all, you have my apology. Nothing that I said was intended to be directed at any individual in this forum.
When I used the word "You" my intended use of the word was the plural meaning Officials in general (in my experience) not "You" singular, as an individual.

I did not miss the line where you admitted to booting an occassional call.

It remains my opinion, despite all the clinics and training available today, that the quality of the officiating in general has been diluted by the explosion in the number of teams and has deteriorated significantly as has the quality of the play at the major league level.

I completely agree with your comment with regard to my father and have never regretted his position on the rules.
Even when we played pick up games in the yard or at the local parks, he insisted that we play by the letter of the rule book.

With regard to seeing you personally umpire a game, I refer you to the discussion of "You" above. The comment was directed at a general group, not you as an individual.
I have had umpires tell me, "I call a high strike zone" or
"I call a low stike zone." I have never seen, in any rule book, the term "High Strike Zone" or "Low Strike Zone."
The Stike Zone is defined in the rule book and should be called accordingly. Major league baseball has made a mockery of this rule.

With regard to your opinion of me as a coach I would respond, "Do you know me? Have you ever seen me coach a single game? Talk about making self-serving assumptions."
I have seen, however, thousands of games, and, as a general rule, have seen multiple errors per game, both on the field, from coaches and from the officials. I accept it as a part of the game. My issue remains with those officials who claim (1) that they don't make any and (2) that if they do, any consequences are still my teams fault for not having scored more runs. In a championship game, down by one run, the bases loaded, two outs and my .650 average best hitter at the plate, the youngest and non-experienced player on the team at first base stepped off of first and back on and was called out (game ending third out) for hesitation, my response was as follows. I told the offending girl (and team) that it was an unfortunate loss, that it was my fault for not having made certain the girl knew an understood the rule, however, that the sun would still come up the next day and that her dad (and I) would still love her. That girl is a highly succesful neurosurgeon today and still sends me a Chritmas card every year. Accepting responsibility has never been a problem here. You are way off target with your remark.

In a game I was watching recently at a local rec league, on a dropped third strike, the catcher picked the ball up and chased the batter to the pitchers circle where the batter then made a right turn to first base. The catcher lobbed the ball over the runner to the first baseman who caught the ball while in contact with the bag prior to the arrival of the runner. The ruling of the home plate official, "Safe - Obstruction".
I made the comment, to my dad sitting next to me, that the runner was out for multiple reasons. The "official" hearing this then ejected me from the park on penalty of forfeit of the team affected by this call if I did not leave. I had no affiliation with either team.
The batter was out for being out of the base path while being chased with the ball by the catcher, the batter was out because the ball arrived at first ahead of her, the first baseman, standing in fair territory, cannot obstruct anyone in catching a ball thrown from the pitchers mound and the runner, who ran into the first baseman in fair territory while she was catching the ball is also guilty of and out for interference with the play. This official was also president of the league. I will take parents out of the stands over his kind on any occassion.
I will take someone with no concept of the rules over the above types ( and they are rampant here) as well as the "high strike zoners" and the "low strike zoners."
In a game my daughter was pitching in, the home plate official actually kicked dirt on the plate and cleaned a stripe about 2" wide down the middle. My daughter walked down to the plate and cleaned it off with her glove, whereupon, the official ejected her. She was 11 years old, and devastated. She never pitched again. Most officials that I have encountered have no concept of the consequences of their actions.
You are correct, winning is not everything, however,
taking a loss, as a result of an obvious blown call by some mindless geek is no fun either.
With regard to the remark, "What the hell, they are only girls" I can produce the name of the league, the names of the board members and the year that this occurred. The official was banned from the league. (It is of no consequence to me whether you believe or not.)
I applaud your chairty benefit work, however, you are still paid most of the time. I am paid, NEVER. I spent over $ 8,000.00 to bring the King and His Court here for an appearance to "Benefit" the local college team. The game, held in the local Minor League Stadium, was video taped.
I have copies (just in case you doubt that too.)
Incidently, I can also produce the names of the ASA Official who tried to have me suspended for a year after my "white cane" remark and the name of the ASA Official who reviewed the video tape of the incident and agreed that I had been right (therefore refusing to suspend me) as well as the name of the coach my daughter was playing for at the time. [That same team went to Minnesota, from California, and was eliminated (while playing a Minn team with a Minn official, when our player was tagged between first and second with an empty glove {ball in the throwing hand} for a game ending double play, also video taped.]

All one can ask, from any human, is that they do the best that they can do. The incidents I have described are a long way from "the best that they can do."

Scott, I found happiness a long time ago. I sincerely hope you do the same. In following my daughters for 18 years, from age six through college (they took their team to a number four national ranking) I have been all over the US, Canada, Australia, China and Japan with them. The Fireworks tournament in Colorado, the Spring Break tournaments in Florida, Regionals, Nationals (including a third place finish - 16U at Rockford) and had a grand time all the way.

In summary, then, let me remind you that my issue was and remains, Officials who refuse to accept (1) that they too make errors and (2) that those errors do have an effect on the game.

Best Regards,
Bob

[Roger Greene]

"The problem with umpires is that they don't care who wins the game!" Yogi Berra

"The problem with coaches is that they see the play with their heart instead of their eyes" Me. (Both F5 and R3 indicated their agrement with that observation as they dusted themselves off.)

Coaches can't coach without having umpires. Umpires wouldn't be able to call without coaches.

I tried to be a player. I've been a coach. I'm now an umpire. Peace, guys.

Roger Greene

[Dakota]

Originally posted by rjhouchin
Officials who refuse to accept (1) that they too make errors and (2) that those errors do have an effect on the game.

Define "accept."

So far, every umpire who has responded to you has admitted making mistakes.

Do you mean reversing the call?
Do you mean shouting to the stands "boy, I sure booted that one!"

What, in your fevered mind, does an umpire who "accepts... that they too make errors..." look like? How does his game management, etc., change? Does he reverse his call because half of the fans and coaches are sure he got it wrong? What?

Define "accept."