A (Somewhat) Rhetorical Rules Question

[BretMan]

Another umpire (whose opinion I value and who checks in on these boards) and I got into a discussion on another message board about the old ASA "not higher than the batter's head" requirement for a foul tip.

Discussing the old rule was kind of a moot exercise, since ASA removed the "not higher than..." requirement in 2006. But, some associations still have that requirement on their books- NSA and USSSA, for example.

Imagine you're back in 2005 and calling an ASA game, or calling an NSA game today, and the "not higher than the batter's head" is still included in the definition of a foul tip. Let me throw out some sample plays- you tell me what you have.

Just to narrow it down, here are your three choices for each of the questions:

a) A foul tip & a live ball.
b) A caught fly ball for an out & a live ball.
c) A foul ball & a dead ball.

1) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, not higher than the batter's head, and is caught. What do you have?

2) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, going higher than the batter's head, and is caught. What do you have?

3) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball comes off the bat in an arcing path, not higher than the batter's head, and is caught by F2. What do you have?

4) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball comes off the bat in an arcing path, going higher than the batter's head, and is caught by F2. What do you have?

5) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, not higher than the batter's head, then rebounds and is caught by another fielder. What do you have?

6) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, going higher than the batter's head, then rebounds and is caught by another fielder. What do you have?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, Bret, I'll play. Give me Rhetorical Rule Questions for $100!

Originally Posted by BretMan

Just to narrow it down, here are your three choices for each of the questions:

a) A foul tip & a live ball.
b) A caught fly ball for an out & a live ball.
c) A foul ball & a dead ball.

1) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, not higher than the batter's head, and is caught. What do you have?

A

2) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, going higher than the batter's head, and is caught. What do you have?

C

3) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball comes off the bat in an arcing path, not higher than the batter's head, and is caught by F2. What do you have?

B

4) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball comes off the bat in an arcing path, going higher than the batter's head, and is caught by F2. What do you have?

B

5) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, not higher than the batter's head, then rebounds and is caught by another fielder. What do you have?

C

6) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, going higher than the batter's head, then rebounds and is caught by another fielder. What do you have?

C

[jmkupka]

Hey Mike,

Your answer to Sit 2 is a typo, correct?
A ball that's nicked off the bat, which F2 has to reach higher than the batter's head in order to catch. would be an out, live ball, no?

[jmkupka]

And Sit 3 would be a rare occurance, maybe the world's slowest pitch, for an arc off the bat not to go higher than the batter's head.

That said... if F2 doesn't have to move the mitt to catch this arc (not sharp but definitely direct), it's not a foul tip?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

And Sit 3 would be a rare occurance, maybe the world's slowest pitch, for an arc off the bat not to go higher than the batter's head.

That said... if F2 doesn't have to move the mitt to catch this arc (not sharp but definitely direct), it's not a foul tip?

Actually, it is not that rare of occurance, especially in SP. And if it comes off the bat and is not a foul tip, the catcher is going to move the glove.

[DeputyUICHousto]

I was in the conversation with Bretman on the other board. Here is a direct quote from Bretman which I felt was incorrect:

"There never was any requirement that a batted ball go to any specified height before it was caught for an out. That is, the ball NEVER had to go over the batter's head to be caught for an out (ie: to be a fly ball caught over foul territory)!"

Prior to the rule change in 2006 the all HAD to be above the batter's head in order for it to be an out of caught by the catcher.

Please enlighten me if I'm incorrect.

Also, in your "situations" posted...anytime the ball goes "sharply and directly" to the catcher's glove or hand it is a foul tip...period.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Hey Mike,

Your answer to Sit 2 is a typo, correct?
A ball that's nicked off the bat, which F2 has to reach higher than the batter's head in order to catch. would be an out, live ball, no?

The catcher didn't have to reach for anything.

[jmkupka]

"2) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, going higher than the batter's head, and is caught. What do you have?

C (A foul ball & a dead ball. [my parentheses])"



This is a typo, though, right Mike? Sharp and direct into the hands cannot be a foul ball & a dead ball.



Sorry I don't have the knack for the quotes

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

"2) Batter swings and barely nicks the ball. The ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's hands, going higher than the batter's head, and is caught. What do you have?

C (A foul ball & a dead ball. [my parentheses])"



This is a typo, though, right Mike? Sharp and direct into the hands cannot be a foul ball & a dead ball.



Sorry I don't have the knack for the quotes

I don't disagree, but before the rule was changed, how many umpires would call that a caught fly ball?

In today's world, there can be some serious size/height differences among the players at all levels, but mostly 10U. It is not inconceivable to have a catcher on her knees and still be as tall as a batter. Therefore, it wouldn't be impossible for a catcher to get a high pitch tipped into her glove that was or seemed over the batter's head.

The purpose of the rule change in Tucson in 2005 was to eliminate any requirement other than going sharply and directly to the catcher's glove/hands.