Rules Question

Ridgeben · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 24, 2003, 08:00am

If anyone has their NFHS rule book handy, see if you can help me locate a rule. If a coach takes the book with him at halftime what is the violation? I see that the book is to remain at the table in 2-11, but where does it say what happens if it is taken? Thanks for the research help.
Ben

mick · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 24, 2003, 08:07am

Quote:

Originally posted by Ridgeben
If anyone has their NFHS rule book handy, see if you can help me locate a rule. If a coach takes the book with him at halftime what is the violation? I see that the book is to remain at the table in 2-11, but where does it say what happens if it is taken? Thanks for the research help.
Ben

Ridgeben,
I'm not sure there is a prescribed penalty.
Let's give him a slap on the wrist... or an unsporting 'T', depending upon presumed intent.
I think it's a wing-it-rule.
mick

APHP · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 24, 2003, 09:06am

NFHS issued a interpertation on this last year--it is a direct tec on the coach...

Hawks Coach · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 24, 2003, 10:13am

What level of play? When/how was it caught?

If this is an informal house league game played under NFHS with parent scorers and parent coaches, one coach comparing the book to his own in the bench area, it is one thing. And if you see him pick it up or holding it by the bench, I would just say put it back. Even if you see him at the tail end, if it doesn't look like he was altering the book, do you really want to issue a T here?

If this is a real HS game with real scorers and coach walks with book, follow the rule. You have to recognize where you are and the formality of the situation before making this call. On court stuff, you always follow the rules. Administrative stuff in informal games, you look at the situation and decide.

A good example of this is that nobody gives starters in any games I have coached except at Nationals. Obviously no Ts are issued for this

But if it was the finals of the National qualifier and the book disappeared at halftime, I would probably take more issue with this than at a meaningless fall league game.

Ridgeben · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 12:38pm

So would most of you give the coach a direct "T" if he takes the book to the locker room with his team? Or would you let it slide?

TriggerMN · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 01:55pm

Direct T on the coach.

A better question is this: do you let the coach keep the scorebook for the entire half, or do you dispatch someone, such as the scorer, to go into the locker room, get the book, and bring it back to the table?

Interesting, because by rule, the officials' jurisdiction ends when they leave the visual confines of the playing area. Does this mean that we have no jurisdiction in the locker room???

Ridgeben · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 02:03pm

Is there any rule that says it is a direct T on the coach? I ask, because I have had no luck finding any such penalty.

mick · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 02:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Ridgeben
So would most of you give the coach a direct "T" if he takes the book to the locker room with his team? Or would you let it slide?

Ridgeben,
I think I'll go with a, "Don't do that, please."
I place that mis-deed on a par with "starters by 10" which is generally followed by a, "Who are your starters. Coach?"
mick

stan-MI · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 02:23pm

I had this situation last week. By the time we approached the table at halftime, the Visitors scorebook was gone. We returned to the court after halftime before the Visitors, so I was there when an assistant coach returned the book.

I told him that, by rule, the book was not allowed to leave the table. I then had the home scorer compare the books to make sure there was agreement, particularly in the area of personal fouls.

I am not aware of any interpretation that calls for a T if a book leaves the table. Can anyone show me where that exists?

Hawks Coach · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 02:26pm

The book is to remain at the table at all times (2-11-11), which is probably why there is no penalty referenced in the rules. If the scorers also remain at the table and keep control of the book, the coach cannot take it.

But that said, if the coach at the varsity level takes the official book into the locker room with him, he is knowingly violating 2-11-11. I would consider it unsportsmanlike conduct and penalize accordingly.

Hawks Coach · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 02:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by stan-MI
I had this situation last week. By the time we approached the table at halftime, the Visitors scorebook was gone. We returned to the court after halftime before the Visitors, so I was there when an assistant coach returned the book.

I told him that, by rule, the book was not allowed to leave the table. I then had the home scorer compare the books to make sure there was agreement, particularly in the area of personal fouls.

I am not aware of any interpretation that calls for a T if a book leaves the table. Can anyone show me where that exists?

Not sure why you are concerned about the visitor's book - no provision to keep it at the table, unless you had designated it as the official scorebook.

stan-MI · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 02:42pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Quote:

Not sure why you are concerned about the visitor's book - no provision to keep it at the table, unless you had designated it as the official scorebook.

Have you ever been in a situation where the scorebooks disagree? On the score? On a player's personal fouls? It doesn't matter which book is the official book. By rule, there are two scorers and two timers. Preventative officiating dictates that you take steps to insure that there aren't any discrepancies between the scorebooks. One way to do that is to ask the scorers at halftime to compare books and work out any problems then, before any question arises as to whether the scoreboard shows the correct score, or whether the star point guard has 4 or 5 fouls.

In the end, you might have to rely on the home book being the official book to resolve any controversies, but why not avoid that situation, if possible. If you take the attitude that only the home book matters, you're asking for trouble.

Hawks Coach · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 02:51pm

Good point - I guess I meant that you can't point to anything in the rules that prevents them from removing the visitor's book. If they want to and you are there, I think the best you can do is compare the books before they go then let it go.

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 03:11pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stan-MI

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Quote:

Not sure why you are concerned about the visitor's book - no provision to keep it at the table, unless you had designated it as the official scorebook.

It doesn't matter which book is the official book.

Gotta agree with the Coach on this one. The language right out of rule 2-11-11 is "The scorebook of the home team shall be the official book, unless the referee rules otherwise. The official scorebook shall remain at the scorer's table throughout the game, including all intermissions". Note that "scorebook" is singular, Stan.

There was a casebook play years ago that stated that it was a T if someone removed the official book at the half. That play has disappeared,though.

Kelvin green · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 27, 2003, 06:11pm

While I agree that a T may be in line here it can be a harsh penalty--

had it happen once where unbeknownst to us the home book left the table when we came back at half we were told that it had---

We made a simple desision we matched up the book (no obvious discrepancies in player fouls or points) and told the home coach that the visiting book was now the official book if there were any discrepancies later in the game we would go with the visiting book...

It worked and did not piss anybody off...