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-   -   Fair/foul call (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/49278-fair-foul-call.html)

NCASAUmp Wed Oct 08, 2008 03:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 542024)
I used to be. :p
Damn! I called that one! Must take one to know one. :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBlue
I would have used any of the cites in 1.Foul Ball, but none of them seemed to apply to the situation. The closes was the inverse of 1.Fair Ball.F.
Again, that's my problem with the wording. I realize this has probably a one in a million chance of happening, but when it does happen, we want some clarity. A diagonal, in my opinion, is no good, as we have nothing on the field to reference one (what? we want more lines?!). I think what is INTENDED is for us to use the baselines, and that's what I'll call.

MNBlue Wed Oct 08, 2008 03:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 542030)
I think what is INTENDED is for us to use the baselines, and that's what I'll call.
You don't work NFHS fastpitch do you?

IRISHMAFIA Wed Oct 08, 2008 03:51pm
What is so hard about this? This is simple. The definitions note specifics that make a batted ball fair or foul.

It is not a matter that the batted ball meets an event-specific definition. The point is the batted ball does NOT meet the definition of a fair ball, therefore cannot be a fair ball.

NCASAUmp Wed Oct 08, 2008 03:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 542032)
You don't work NFHS fastpitch do you?
Nope! ASA SP only.

NCASAUmp Wed Oct 08, 2008 03:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 542034)
What is so hard about this? This is simple. The definitions note specifics that make a batted ball fair or foul.

It is not a matter that the batted ball meets an event-specific definition. The point is the batted ball does NOT meet the definition of a fair ball, therefore cannot be a fair ball.
The only thing "hard" about this is the fact that it's just one of those things that's understood as simple common sense, but I can picture some nutball coach trying and (cringe... possibly even successfully) arguing that this is a fair ball. Maybe they're used to NFHS. Maybe they're used to some 65' (or whatever your base distance is) arch across the field. Maybe they're used to space aliens with IR looking over the field. Who knows?

We know what the call is. The point is: how?

IRISHMAFIA Wed Oct 08, 2008 04:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 542037)
We know what the call is. The point is: how?
How? I just told you how. The batted ball does not meet the definition of a fair ball. Okay, if it isn't a fair ball, what else can it be?:rolleyes:

NCASAUmp Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 542042)
How? I just told you how. The batted ball does not meet the definition of a fair ball. Okay, if it isn't a fair ball, what else can it be?:rolleyes:
My point is... "Beyond" what? If it stops a few feet shy of 2B, which is 91' 11" on a 65' base field, then rolls into foul territory on the HP side of 1B or 3B, one may argue that it went almost 25' beyond 1B or 3B.

Note I said "argue" and not "reason." :D

Can we enforce an un-rule?

Andy Thu Oct 09, 2008 09:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 541992)
NFHS 2.20.1.f
A fair ball is a batted ball that:
first falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first or third base.

ASA 1.Fair Ball.F
A legally batted ball that:
First falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third base.



Our NFHS State UIC has told us (me directly) that the NFHS ruling for a batted ball that first lands beyond a direct line from 1B to 3B is a fair ball, since the NFHS definition does not include 2B and ASA's definition does include 2B.

That is the closest to a ruling that I can find.

This may just be muddying the waters further, but I believe that NFHS interpretation is for baseball. No definitive source, I just seem to recall reading that somewhere.

I understand that the two rules (ASA and NFHS) are worded differently, but personally, I have never heard of a different interp for NFHS. I don't think that this is one of the things covered in the rules differences document, either.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Oct 09, 2008 03:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 542101)
My point is... "Beyond" what? If it stops a few feet shy of 2B, which is 91' 11" on a 65' base field, then rolls into foul territory on the HP side of 1B or 3B, one may argue that it went almost 25' beyond 1B or 3B.

Note I said "argue" and not "reason." :D

Can we enforce an un-rule?
One may argue that stealing is only allowed during a full moon. Doesn't mean I'm going to stand there and listen to it.

WestMichBlue Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 542169)
I understand that the two rules (ASA and NFHS) are worded differently, but personally, I have never heard of a different interp for NFHS. I don't think that this is one of the things covered in the rules differences document, either.
I raised this issue with a former member of the NFHS committee. His personal interpretation was to go with the "triangle" view, but he said that he would check with Indy. Today the following came back:

The NFHS says their interpretation would be the same as the NCAA and ASA interpretation, making it a foul ball. They will work on better language for the “beyond first and third” parts of the foul and fair definitions.

WMB

Tex Tue Oct 14, 2008 03:06pm
Foul ball in both ASA and NFHS. Ball did not touch or go past 1st base. Simple as that. Don't understand the confusion. The ball can touch in right field, spin back toward 1st base, and go over the foul line between home and 1st base. All of this without being touched. The result is a foul ball.

youngump Tue Oct 14, 2008 04:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex (Post 543111)
Foul ball in both ASA and NFHS. Ball did not go past 1st base. Simple as that. Don't understand the confusion.
The confusion is simple it's unclear from the rulebook itself what the definition of past first base is. Does a ball which hits second pass 1st base? That depends on which direction you're facing. [Yes, I know it's fair anyway.]
________
Switzel live

MNBlue Tue Oct 14, 2008 06:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex (Post 543111)
The ball can touch in right field, spin back toward 1st base, and go over the foul line between home and 1st base. All of this without being touched. The result is a foul ball.
This is not true. If the ball first lands beyond first base, and subsequently rolls untouched into foul territory, it will be a fair ball.

wadeintothem Tue Oct 14, 2008 07:46pm
Holy "way-to-complicate-something-very-simple, batman."

In ASA and NFHS (and likely every other league, including the yemini slayer of the infidel softball federation) I have a foul ball. The rules are the same. If some individual state rule interpreter is messing up the rule for NFHS in your state, thats for your state only.

This is a foul ball. Simple.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Oct 14, 2008 09:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 543148)
Holy "way-to-complicate-something-very-simple, batman."

In ASA and NFHS (and likely every other league, including the yemini slayer of the infidel softball federation) I have a foul ball. The rules are the same. If some individual state rule interpreter is messing up the rule for NFHS in your state, thats for your state only.
Apparently not since more than one person, not from the same state has received the same interp. And, BTW, I first heard it in a clinic well more than a dozen years ago.


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