Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 541966)

I recall a not-so-recent thread describing a similar situation to mine:

A popup lands beyond the pitcher's plate between F1 & F4, and backspins untouched til it rolls across the baseline this side of 1B.

The discussion dealt with the triangulation of 1B, 3B & Home plate.

In my case, I called it foul, and got no argument. I forget what the verdict was in the thread.

Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 541966)

I recall a not-so-recent thread describing a similar situation to mine:

A popup lands beyond the pitcher's plate between F1 & F4, and backspins untouched til it rolls across the baseline this side of 1B.

The discussion dealt with the triangulation of 1B, 3B & Home plate.

In my case, I called it foul, and got no argument. I forget what the verdict was in the thread.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 541970)

NFHS - I believe this is a fair ball if it lands beyond a direct line between 1B & 3B. I'm sure someone will verify or correct me.

Originally Posted by shipwreck (Post 542000)

There are some on this board who repeatedly state that some interpretations are wrong because that isn't the intent of the rule by the governing bodies. To me that is the case in this scenario. I would think if NFHS wanted that to be a fair ball, they would have put in the wording "lands past an imaginary line between 1st and 3rd." JMHO Dave

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 541992)

ASA 1.Fair Ball.F
A legally batted ball that:
First falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third base.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 542004)

Actually, this is referring to a fly ball hit beyond 1B or 3B. You actually want...

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 542006)

No, I don't think so. :confused:

The scenario is a fly ball that lands beyond a diagonal from 1B to 3B BUT in front of the baselines from 1B-2B-3B and subsequently rolls into foul territory not beyond 1B or 3B.

I'm saying that ASA says this is a foul ball and the interpretation I was given for NFHS is that it is a fair ball.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 542014)

F, G and H deal with everything beyond that.

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 542016)

Exactly. That is why I used it. ASA 1.Fair Ball.F says an untouched batted ball that lands beyond the diamond will be a fair ball even if it rolls into foul territory. This means that an untouched batted ball that lands inside the diamond and rolls into foul territory will be a foul ball.

The interpretation of the NFHS rule is in conflict with this.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 542022)

Are you in IT, by any chance?

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 542024)

I used to be. :p

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I would have used any of the cites in 1.Foul Ball, but none of them seemed to apply to the situation. The closes was the inverse of 1.Fair Ball.F.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 542030)

I think what is INTENDED is for us to use the baselines, and that's what I'll call.

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 542032)

You don't work NFHS fastpitch do you?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 542034)

What is so hard about this? This is simple. The definitions note specifics that make a batted ball fair or foul.

It is not a matter that the batted ball meets an event-specific definition. The point is the batted ball does NOT meet the definition of a fair ball, therefore cannot be a fair ball.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 542037)

We know what the call is. The point is: how?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 542042)

How? I just told you how. The batted ball does not meet the definition of a fair ball. Okay, if it isn't a fair ball, what else can it be?:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 541992)

NFHS 2.20.1.f
A fair ball is a batted ball that:
first falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first or third base.

ASA 1.Fair Ball.F
A legally batted ball that:
First falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third base.



Our NFHS State UIC has told us (me directly) that the NFHS ruling for a batted ball that first lands beyond a direct line from 1B to 3B is a fair ball, since the NFHS definition does not include 2B and ASA's definition does include 2B.

That is the closest to a ruling that I can find.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 542101)

My point is... "Beyond" what? If it stops a few feet shy of 2B, which is 91' 11" on a 65' base field, then rolls into foul territory on the HP side of 1B or 3B, one may argue that it went almost 25' beyond 1B or 3B.

Note I said "argue" and not "reason." :D

Can we enforce an un-rule?

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 542169)

I understand that the two rules (ASA and NFHS) are worded differently, but personally, I have never heard of a different interp for NFHS. I don't think that this is one of the things covered in the rules differences document, either.

Originally Posted by Tex (Post 543111)

Foul ball in both ASA and NFHS. Ball did not go past 1st base. Simple as that. Don't understand the confusion.

Originally Posted by Tex (Post 543111)

The ball can touch in right field, spin back toward 1st base, and go over the foul line between home and 1st base. All of this without being touched. The result is a foul ball.

Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 543148)

Holy "way-to-complicate-something-very-simple, batman."

In ASA and NFHS (and likely every other league, including the yemini slayer of the infidel softball federation) I have a foul ball. The rules are the same. If some individual state rule interpreter is messing up the rule for NFHS in your state, thats for your state only.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 543180)

I found this in the [ASA] Umpire Case Book 2007:

PLAY 1-42
B1 hits a pop fly between 1B and 2B, and the ball falls untouched to the ground about six feet beyond the base line. The ball has backspin and rolls across the foul line about ten feet from home plate, where it is first touched by F3. B1 advances to 2B on the play.
RULING: This is a fair ball because it first touches the ground beyond the bases in fair territory. B1 remains at 2B and is credited with a couble. (1-FAIR BALL-F)

And here is 1 - FAIR BALL:

FAIR BALL: A legally batted ball that:
A. Settles or is touched on or over fair territory between home and first
base or between home and third base.
B. Bounds over or past first or third base, which is in fair territory, regardless
of where the ball hits after going over the base.
C. While on or over fair territory, touches the person, attached equipment
or clothing of a player or an umpire.
D. While over fair territory, an runner offensive player interferes with a
defensive player attempting to field a batted ball.
E. Touches first, second or third base.
F. First falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third base.
G. While over fair territory, passes out of the playing field beyond the
outfield fence.
H. Hits the foul pole.

So a ball that touches first, second or third base is fair regardless of what happens after that. Conside the ball that hits the pitcher's plate and bounds off foul between either 1B or 3B and home. An unlikely play would be a line drive that hits 2B on the fly and ricohets to foul territory between either 1B or 3B and home.

But the spinning popup "beyond the bases in fair territory" and then spins off into foul ground between either 1B or 3B and home is a bit less intuitive.

This one I would have gotten wrong.

Ted

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 543207)

The part I would have erred on was the ball falling beyond the base line and then spinning to foul territory. I would have incorrectly ruled this as a foul ball. Fortunately, I haven't had to make that call, and in 30 years as a player, don't recall seeing such a play.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 543230)

I've not seen a ball that has landed beyond the base line [defined as beyond base line from 1B to 2B or 2B to 3B] in fair territory and then rolled foul between 1B or 3B and home untouched. Ted

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 543230)

OK, I'll try to be clear. I've seen many times a blooper down a line that hits beyond the base in fair territory that then kicks foul - and this is a fair ball.

I've seen many times a popup in the infield that lands originally in fair territory but then rolls foul between 1B or 3B and home untouched - this is a foul ball.

I've not seen a ball that has landed beyond the base line [defined as beyond base line from 1B to 2B or 2B to 3B] in fair territory and then rolled foul between 1B or 3B and home untouched. This would be a fair ball. And this is the call I would have made a mistake on had I not followed this discussion. And I certainly don't see THAT in every game I do.

I first wondered about this when I read the casebook play 1-42.

Hope that helps. It's helped me.

Ted

Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 543343)

"PLAY 1-42
B1 hits a pop fly between 1B and 2B, and the ball falls untouched to the ground about six feet beyond the base line. The ball has backspin and rolls across the foul line about ten feet from home plate, where it is first touched by F3. B1 advances to 2B on the play.
RULING: This is a fair ball because it first touches the ground beyond the bases in fair territory. B1 remains at 2B and is credited with a couble. (1-FAIR BALL-F)"


My OP had the ball land beyond the triangle of HP, 1B & 3B, but the above play does verify that there is a point beyond which the ball can land, spin back and roll foul (short of 1b) and be considered fair. Correct?

Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 543343)

... B1 remains at 2B and is credited with a couble. (1-FAIR BALL-F)"

Originally Posted by SRW (Post 543374)

What's a couble?

Originally Posted by SRW (Post 543374)

What's a couble?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 543421)

That's when each team has it's own time keeper.

You know, when there are a couble of kitchen timers hangin' on the backstop! :D

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 543260)

Thank you. And you are correct, you don't see that happen often. But those are the calls where the umpire earns their money and respect of their peers.

Originally Posted by bkbjones (Post 543469)

God help me I am starting to sound like Wild Bill...but it's true.

Originally Posted by bkbjones (Post 543469)

Especially the ones who KNOW you are wrong...and the UIC tells them to shut the !$#@ up, he got it right, go read your !$#@^%$ rule book if you don't believe me...God help me I am starting to sound like Wild Bill...but it's true.

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 543510)

Nah....you need a few more !#**@'s in there...and also some spitting sound effects! :D