ASA Rule; Access to,

[topper]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

You're asking ME to wake up and smell the cost of living? Oh, if you only knew.

Obviously loyalty doesn't mean as much to you as it does to me and many others. If that is a "fault" in your eyes, I feel sorry for you. If you are in it for the money, please quit now and go cook fries at McDonalds, work at 7-11 or something else. You will make far more money (net profit) at Mickey D's than you ever will umpiring. You might not make as many friends for life at Mickey D's, but, heck, you'll be much better off in regards to the cost of living.

I'm truly sorry to hear about your health issues and hope that things improve for you.

The assumption that loyalty doesn't mean much to me because my loyalty doesn't lie with ASA or any other association is a bad one. I base mine on personal relationships and reciprocation. The leadership of ASA in this area on both the officiating and non-officiating side do very little to earn that loyalty. They, like wadeintothem, seem to have an obvious disdain for those who have chosen to move into college ball even though they cut their teeth working ASA leagues, qualifiers, Metro tournaments, etc. Loyalty is a two way street.

My problem is not with those umpires who decide to be exclusive to ASA and work for whatever price ASA deems fair. That's their business. It's with those who criticize others who, for whatever reason, decide not to.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

Obviously loyalty doesn't mean as much to you as it does to me and many others. If that is a "fault" in your eyes, I feel sorry for you. If you are in it for the money, please quit now and go cook fries at McDonalds, work at 7-11 or something else. You will make far more money (net profit) at Mickey D's than you ever will umpiring. You might not make as many friends for life at Mickey D's, but, heck, you'll be much better off in regards to the cost of living.

Interesting discussion. I, like many others here, (that I dont know), officiate sports year round--because of passion for this hobby.

However, I'm amused at those that proudly boast a superior attitude by saying "get out, if you're doing it for the $$". Who's to say someone in it for the $ isnt a good official? Any examples given can surely be offset by others. Money motivations for doing anything doesnt equate to lack of ability.

I can honestly say 2 things:
1) while officiating varsity baseball, football, basketball, softball, I have never asked a partner if they're only in it for the money(if I'm the norm, how would one judge anothers issue of $ vs passion?).
2)We've all worked w/officials that we perceived better or worse than us (usually only remember the worse, lol, maybe a subconscience pat on my back?)
Should I judge the good as PASSION, and the bad as $$ only motivated? I think not.-- i.e. A $1M/yr income lawyer that is very good, but does it for his lifestyle, cars, homes, ect....

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by archangel

Interesting discussion. I, like many others here, (that I dont know), officiate sports year round--because of passion for this hobby.

However, I'm amused at those that proudly boast a superior attitude by saying "get out, if you're doing it for the $$". Who's to say someone in it for the $ isnt a good official? Any examples given can surely be offset by others. Money motivations for doing anything doesnt equate to lack of ability.

I can honestly say 2 things:
1) while officiating varsity baseball, football, basketball, softball, I have never asked a partner if they're only in it for the money(if I'm the norm, how would one judge anothers issue of $ vs passion?).
2)We've all worked w/officials that we perceived better or worse than us (usually only remember the worse, lol, maybe a subconscience pat on my back?)
Should I judge the good as PASSION, and the bad as $$ only motivated? I think not.-- i.e. A $1M/yr income lawyer that is very good, but does it for his lifestyle, cars, homes, ect....

I think the issue people have with those who are in it for the money is that it often clearly reflects in their performance. They show up right before gametime, and they're the first ones in the parking lot after the game. They settle for "that's good enough," and don't prioritize anything having to do with improvement. It's apparent to everyone that they don't care, and frankly... they don't care about that, either! It reflects poorly upon the individual umpire, as well as the rest of the crew.

Not everyone who's in it for the money falls into this category, but most do. If that's an umpire's agenda, fine. Just don't make it so obvious. You're dragging the rest of us down.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by topper

They, like wadeintothem, seem to have an obvious disdain for those who have chosen to move into college ball even though they cut their teeth working ASA leagues, qualifiers, Metro tournaments, etc. Loyalty is a two way street.

Hey, I dont have a disdain for NCAA at all, in fact, I'd switch careers at even a little less money if it would allow me to work NCAA; my job does not allow me to work NCAA, and that sucks. Furthermore, I am of the opinion NCAA mechanics are superior to ASA by a lot. So you misrepresent my position.

I was discussing the NCAA type umpires who sit around sniveling about money all the time while they begrudgingly work ASA games. There arent many like that, most are great to be around, but that type is around....

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

There arent many like that, most are great to be around, but that type is around....

Yes they are. (sarcasm alert) By the way, did I tell you about the games I worked last night for $25.00 a apiece? That is ridiculous. I mean, I am used to getting per diem, plus 75.00 a game and seeing higher caliber play all at the same time. What are these rec league people thinking. Did I tell you the one about the time that I was working these two DII schools and.......

[DaveASA/FED]

Well I think this is an interesting discussion. I see all sides of this argument, I mean discussion. I agree everyone enjoys receiving their game fees for doing their job. And it is a “requirement” for most to be able to do this hobby that we love so much. I however make a distinction between “doing it for the money” and getting paid to do something I enjoy. “Doing it for the money” is what I do all day to pay my bills at home, I enjoy a lot of my “real” job, but not most of it. I enjoy most of umpiring, but not all of it. I get up everyday and go to work to put food on the table, I umpire to keep myself sane. Ya I use the money for extras, right now I’m remodeling a bathroom with the games fees from this spring. BUT the money is secondary to me, I do it cause I love it. By the way the wife can’t understand why I can get up ½ hour early to get to a softball tourney on time on Saturday, but smack the snooze button 15 times during the work week….hum, lets see….I enjoy umpiring, I have to go to work? Seems to make sense to me!!

I think that is the difference, I have seen several different flavors of umpires but the two extreme I see this way:
1) In it for the money, doesn’t attend any schools, keeps only bare minimum requirements (license valid) so they can call ball. Gets there late, looks terrible(worn out equipment) and doesn’t really seem to care about getting things right just getting the game over.
2) The opposite, cares about doing everything to their greatest ability always willing to learn, spends lots of $$ on training and time on studying mechanics and rules knowledge. Piles the checks up until there is too many to carry / stuff in the drawer then cashes them in and either pays off a bill, or buys something for the family.


About the loyalty issue I agree with both sides. I think you have to decide what is important to you. Is it to work an ASA national tournament? If it is then you need to build that resume that will allow you to do that. If it is to make as much money as you can in the year, then ya take the XYZ games that weekend you probably will make more money. I personally have no issue with either one, but chose a path and don’t ***** about being able to have gone down the other one. You know ASA pays $XX a game, you know you could have made $YY a game calling XYZ ball. Get over it you made a decision live with it.

And about NCAA umpires, I know several and some are very good. Some are better than me, some aren’t. Just cause you call college ball doesn't mean you “walk on water”. Could I make it calling college ball? I don’t know, probably will never know….I have a job that won’t allow me to take off the time necessary to find out. But I really don’t like the idea that I am a subpar umpire simply because I don’t call college ball. I work just as hard to get my skills better and I am doing ok, ya some are better that's ok gives me something to work toward but look at the skills not just what they do in another organization.

Someone mentioned something about passion for the game, I guess bottom line IMO as long as you have passion for the game, which to me means you strive to be the best at your job of umpiring and you follow your vision to get to your goal (ASA national championship, NCAA Super Regional, Olympics, maximize income) and you don’t whine about where you are vs where you could be then I have no issue with you.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I think the issue people have with those who are in it for the money is that it often clearly reflects in their performance. They show up right before gametime, and they're the first ones in the parking lot after the game. They settle for "that's good enough," and don't prioritize anything having to do with improvement. It's apparent to everyone that they don't care, and frankly... they don't care about that, either! It reflects poorly upon the individual umpire, as well as the rest of the crew.

Not everyone who's in it for the money falls into this category, but most do. If that's an umpire's agenda, fine. Just don't make it so obvious. You're dragging the rest of us down.

NCASA, I'm assuming that you already know, that I agree with what you say. My point was to those here that use that "quit if money only" comment as a defense against those that disagree with them.

Though all of us have different skill levels, I'd also like to assume 2 more things;
1) any official that spends their free time on this or other similar site, has the passion and desire to improve their craft.
2) those officials that you describe above, that reflect poorly on the rest of us, probably dont visit and learn from these sites...

I.E. Some of us need that "thick skin" more often, off the diamond/field/court.......

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by archangel

NCASA, I'm assuming that you already know, that I agree with what you say. My point was to those here that use that "quit if money only" comment as a defense against those that disagree with them.

Though all of us have different skill levels, I'd also like to assume 2 more things;
1) any official that spends their free time on this or other similar site, has the passion and desire to improve their craft.
2) those officials that you describe above, that reflect poorly on the rest of us, probably dont visit and learn from these sites...

I.E. Some of us need that "thick skin" more often, off the diamond/field/court.......

I'd definitely agree with those two assumptions, with the qualification of "if they're here and not trolling."

Trolling aside, I have no problem if someone is in it for the money. Just don't drag me down with you. Though I guess that's true for the motivations of any umpire I call with. If their motivations do not exert a positive influence in how they handle the game, then I don't want to be around them when the sh1t hits the fan.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I don't have any problem with people who get in umpiring for the money either. That said, like any other job one gets into for the money, whether flipping burgers at McDonalds, working at a Staples, security guard, convenience store clerk, military, usher at a stadium/arena, whatever, a person should wear the prescribed uniform/garments, perform all tasks as instructed and act in a professional manner.

My problem aren't necessarily with those who umpire for whatever reason, at least have and demonstrate the appropriate amount pride in your performance and appearance. One wouldn't last long at other "positions" for money, why does anyone believe this should be different?

A little pet peeve I have are sports officials who are prim and proper in one sport, but are lazy and messy in their mannerisms and dress in another sport. I see that all the time. And the kicker is, if someone worked their primary sport as a secondary and showed up late in a sloppy uniform and was lazy in executing their mechanics, these same folks would be the first to attack their lack of respect for THEIR sport.

[NCASAUmp]

Tonight, we just had an umpire bail out and leave another umpire by himself because he didn't want to call in the rain. This umpire does nothing but complain that we're not getting paid enough ($18/game for SP), and his demeanor on the field makes it quite obvious that he's only in it for the money.

I got the message late, and if I'd gotten it earlier, I would've gone to the field to help a fellow blue out. But since the 2nd of 3 games is winding down, I'm on standby in case the umpires on the other fields don't chip in and help him out. Thankfully, I'm only 10 minutes away. Yes, I'd drive over there to call the last 45 minutes of a game. If it helps a good fellow umpire out and helps to preserve the integrity of our crew, damaged as it is by this other umpire's selfishness, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Hands down.

What kicks me in the rear is that I had thought of going to that park after my assigned field got cancelled, just in case something like this might happen. I decided against it, figuring, "what're the odds?" DOH!

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by archangel

Interesting discussion. I, like many others here, (that I dont know), officiate sports year round--because of passion for this hobby.

However, I'm amused at those that proudly boast a superior attitude by saying "get out, if you're doing it for the $$". Who's to say someone in it for the $ isnt a good official? Any examples given can surely be offset by others. Money motivations for doing anything doesnt equate to lack of ability.

I can honestly say 2 things:
1) while officiating varsity baseball, football, basketball, softball, I have never asked a partner if they're only in it for the money(if I'm the norm, how would one judge anothers issue of $ vs passion?).
2)We've all worked w/officials that we perceived better or worse than us (usually only remember the worse, lol, maybe a subconscience pat on my back?)
Should I judge the good as PASSION, and the bad as $$ only motivated? I think not.-- i.e. A $1M/yr income lawyer that is very good, but does it for his lifestyle, cars, homes, ect....

I'm sorry you feel I have a superior attitude. Moreover, my shrink is very amused by the comment. I agree: money motivations for doing anything don't equal lack of ability.

My experience here and in other places has been that many times folks who are motivated by the bucks are only motivated by the bucks. We all have different goals. One of my major goals is to improve while helping others improve. For the most part, folks in it for the bucks don't give back to others or the organization. (Not 100% true, but ...)

I could go on and on...but please don't play the superior attitude card. If anything I focus too much on how much I suck...

[topper]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Trolling aside, I have no problem if someone is in it for the money. Just don't drag me down with you.

The second sentence seems to contradict the first.

There hase been alot of mention of "in it for the money" in this thread. I don't think anyone said they were in it for the money. What I tried to say (albeit poorly I guess) is when possible, let the pay reflect the level of the crew and the importance of the game.

A frustrating part about what we do is that, at many tournaments, you can have one field being covered by umpires who work hard to do things the right way and on the next field over, you have some who could care less about how they do things. The sad fact is that they all make the same pay. I realize that little can be done about this situation, but when making assignments based on merit,like ASA Nationals, when each official has earned his/her spot, why not reward these high performers with a little more in their wallets. I certianly can't understand paying them less than what they make on a weekly basis.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

The second sentence seems to contradict the first.

Not at all. I don't have a problem if someone is in it just for the extra cash. Just show a little integrity by not making it so blatantly obvious that it ends up reflecting poorly on the whole group.

The concept that is sometimes forgotten is that good or bad, wherever we go, we're judged as a group. If one member gets out of line, then the whole group has to deal with the problem. If an umpire fails to show or leaves early (such as the case I mentioned last night), it makes us ALL look bad.

The irony is that the ones in our crew who make us look bad are the first ones to complain about the low pay, yet it's their actions that make things difficult when trying to negotiate better contracts.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

If anything I focus too much on how much I suck...

now thats funny, lol, no sarcasm intended

[archangel]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Not at all. I don't have a problem if someone is in it just for the extra cash. Just show a little integrity by not making it so blatantly obvious that it ends up reflecting poorly on the whole group.

And my point is that its almost impossible to judge ones actions(or lack of) and then say "They're only in for the $$".

We all can come up with examples of those that "fit the bill", but without knowing them, their motivations, why they officiate, their officiating experience and education, then any comments about them is just an assumption(and we know what that means, right?)

I know of officials who would probably work for free (enjoy the power, maybe?), but are slobs, have poor mechanics, ect. I also know others who are very good, I'm happy to work with them, but loudly complain off field about pay, # of mtgs to attend, ect.

Oh, and I initially disagreed w/ anothers comment about this posts topic, so dont think I'm "dragging you down there with me". I'm not down there!