NSA Rule Interpretation re: Intentionally Dropped Ball

[BretMan]

Something that came up in a recent rules discussion, specifically a question about a batter being out on an "intentionally dropped ball".

I know the ASA rule and the NFHS rule (which both actually have a slightly different interpretation), but this question is about the NSA fastpitch rule.

The NSA rule (7-11-e) would lead one to believe that when a fielder allows the ball to drop untouched (and everything else is in place with regards to the number of outs and at least first base being occupied), then they rule that as an "intentionally dropped ball".

All other rule sets I'm familiar with- for both baseball and softball- define an intenionall dropped ball as one that is actually touched by the fielder. In other words, if the ball is allowed to drop to the ground untouched, that does not meet the "intentionally dropped" definition.

So, what I'm looking for is something "official" from NSA that would confirm they are the "odd man out" with regards to how they define an "intentionally dropped ball".

Anybody have anything?

[NCASAUmp]

Funny you should mention this, because tonight, I made this call for the second time. In 16 years. Go figure.

Anyway, looking at NSA's rule book online, under 9-1-u, it says...

The ball is dead and not in play: When a caught fair ball, including a line drive, which can be handled by any infielder with ordinary effort, is intentionally dropped, with less than two outs, and with a runner on 1st, 1st and 2nd, 1st and 3rd or 1st, 2nd or 3rd bases.

I'd feel pretty comfortable in saying that the ball must first be caught and, in a controlled manner, then be dropped by the infielder.

[BretMan]

That is one of the problems I'm having- the rule you quote (which is rule 9-1-s in the fastpitch section) says the ball is dead when it is "intentionally dropped".

But rule 7-11-e, which states that the batter is out on an intentional drop, says that he's out when "...a fielder intentionally drops or lets drop a fair fly ball...".

For all other baseball and softball codes, an intentional drop requires the fielder to actually contact the ball. The addition of the phrase "or lets drop" leads me to believe that they're talking about something different than making the catch, then dropping the ball, or guiding the ball to the ground or letting it hit the glove and fall. It seems that the "lets drop" in this context must mean "allows the ball to drop untouched".

Yes, this is an exceedingly rare call- perhaps the rarest one we will ever have to make on the field. I have made it once in a ten year span, in an ASA slow pitch game where it was so blatantly obvious anyone could call it.

Of course, the players in the game were incredulous, convinced that I was just making stuff up!

As you say, actually catching the ball, then releasing it in a controlled manner is the ASA requirement for an "intentional drop". But the NFHS rule is different- no clean catch is first needed. Purposely knocking the ball down or guiding it to the ground, when it could have been caught with ordinary effort, satisfies their "intentional drop" definition.

So, those two major rule sets have different interpretations of this rule- but both require contact with the ball. Apparently, NSA has a third and different interpetation- that simply allowing the ball to drop untouched can be called as an "intentional drop".

[NCASAUmp]

Well, after looking at the rule you quoted, I'd have to agree with that interpretation. If simply letting a perfectly catchable ball drop to the ground untouched is NOT what they wanted, then shame on them for phrasing it so poorly.

In my game last night, I had enough time to determine the catch, call the out, and THEN the fielder intentionally let it drop. I called "dead ball," but I suppose a simple "time" would suffice.

[7in60]

Originally Posted by BretMan

For all other baseball and softball codes, an intentional drop requires the fielder to actually contact the ball. The addition of the phrase "or lets drop" leads me to believe that they're talking about something different than making the catch, then dropping the ball, or guiding the ball to the ground or letting it hit the glove and fall. It seems that the "lets drop" in this context must mean "allows the ball to drop untouched".

Yes, this is an exceedingly rare call- perhaps the rarest one we will ever have to make on the field. I have made it once in a ten year span, in an ASA slow pitch game where it was so blatantly obvious anyone could call it.

Of course, the players in the game were incredulous, convinced that I was just making stuff up!

I can see this happening - player sets up to make a basket catch, maybe even squats, and pulls his glove away at the last second.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by 7in60

I can see this happening - player sets up to make a basket catch, maybe even squats, and pulls his glove away at the last second.

Yes, that can happen. Are you suggesting that this be ruled an intentionally dropped fly ball?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by celebur

Yes, that can happen. Are you suggesting that this be ruled an intentionally dropped fly ball?

I personally believe that this should be ruled an intentionally dropped fly ball (IDFB, for short). I think it sets up a cheap double play through unfair deception. Others will disagree with me, and that's fine. Unfortunately, ASA falls into that category, but hey... I call what they want me to call.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I personally believe that this should be ruled an intentionally dropped fly ball (IDFB, for short). I think it sets up a cheap double play through unfair deception. Others will disagree with me, and that's fine. Unfortunately, ASA falls into that category, but hey... I call what they want me to call.

If I understand the thinking correctly, There shouldn't be a cheap double play because the runner going to first should have time to get there. On a line drive the play may be different but things are happening fast and the runner is likely to break back towards first.
________
Wong Amat Tower Condominium

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by youngump

If I understand the thinking correctly, There shouldn't be a cheap double play because the runner going to first should have time to get there. On a line drive the play may be different but things are happening fast and the runner is likely to break back towards first.

In the two instances where I've invoked this rule, both infielders had an easy shot at making the double play. And I mean easy.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In the two instances where I've invoked this rule, both infielders had an easy shot at making the double play. And I mean easy.

In either play, was one of your outs the BR?

[greymule]

I know of no code, baseball or softball, that prohibits a fielder from letting a ball drop untouched to the ground.

There are two protections against "deception": (1) the infield fly rule, and (2) the fact that the BR should run on a batted ball.

Codes do differ, however, in whether a fielder is allowed to "guide the ball" to the ground. For example, in ASA, this is legal. In OBR, it is not.

[BretMan]

Every baseball and softball rule set I've been able to reseach has the requirement of actual contact between the ball and the fielder before an intentional drop can be ruled. That is, allowing the ball to drop untouched is perfectly legal.

Except, it appears, for NSA- if you read how their rule is worded. If that is the case, then they are the "odd man out" of the baseball and softball world. It wouldn't be the first time that one organization or the other went against the grain with one of their interpretations.

What I was trying to get is some "official" confirmation of that. I have sent an email to the NSA Umpire-in-Chief to see if he can confirm this.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In either play, was one of your outs the BR?

In both cases, yep. Dead ball, BR's out.

[greymule]

I just looked at NSA's 7-11-e. The wording is horrendous—ambiguous in several different ways, with unclear references and a couple of gaps in logic. And all those listings of people on base are unnecessary; all that was needed was "with 1B occupied and less than 2 out."

Including "lets drop" with "drops" could reasonably indicate that letting the ball drop without touching it is illegal. But couldn't a "trapped ball," which is apparently not covered under this rule, first be intentionally allowed to drop?

With rules written this badly, no wonder there is confusion.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In both cases, yep. Dead ball, BR's out.

I meant if you didn't make the ID call