Illegal Player - USSSA Fastpitch Rules

[kfrisbee]

I was told something at a tournament last weekend that I think conflicts with the rules.

13U girls fastpitch, Illegal Player: E8 was replaced while on offense and when team took the field defensively the original player took the field. PU was not notified of the change. First pitch was delivered making E8 an illegal player. Defensive Coach caught the error and illegal player was replaced immediately.

The rulebook states: "The use of an illegal player is handled as a protest that can be made at any time, while the player is in the game. A player will not violate the illegal player provision until he/she enters the game and one (1) pitch is thrown. Any action before one pitch is thrown is
correctable."

I was told after the game that if we would have won the game, the other coach would have protested the game and we would have forfeited.

Since the rule states that the protest would have had to be during the time that the illegal player was in the game, a protest after the correction was made would not make a difference in the outcome of the game should we have won.

Am I correct?

All comments are appreciated!

[Skahtboi]

I am not sure if you are mixing up the unreported sub rule with the illegal player rule. What makes this player illegal in your mind? Her failure to report her entry to the PU? If so, this is just an unreported sub, and a team warning is issued. That is all, unless this was the second offense, in which case the head coach is ejected.

If this was in fact an illegal player, i.e. a sub/starter re-entering for the second time, a sub/starter who re-enters in the wrong batting position, or using a player who was previously removed, then the penalty should be both the coach and the IP being ejected.

Either way, it doesn't sound like it was handled properly, and if that is the case, then yes, it is protestable. (Just not for the reasons the coach seemed to think.) The reason it would be protestable is because of the failure to correctly interpret and apply the rules.

[Skahtboi]

Oh...and the offended coach needs to verbalize his/her protest at the time they were offended. They should tell the PU that they are playing the game under protest, and the reason of the protest.

[Dakota]

Aren't you describing an unreported substitute? If so, in U-trip, first offense is a team warning and all play is legal.

If it was an illegal player, (say, because E8 had already used up her re-entry rights), you are correct that the protest must be made while the illegal player is in the game. Once the illegal player leaves the game, no protest can be made. Further, if the other coach was going to file a protest, he must do it at the time. Further (again) the penalty for illegal player is the player and coach are ejected, and the player replaced by an eligible subsititute. The penalty is not a forfeit.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by kfrisbee

I was told after the game that if we would have won the game, the other coach would have protested the game and we would have forfeited.

This statement shows how clueless the other coach really is. That is not how a protest works. Rule 13 of the USSSA Rules book should clarify this for you.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Aren't you describing an unreported substitute? If so, in U-trip, first offense is a team warning and all play is legal.

If it was an illegal player, (say, because E8 had already used up her re-entry rights), you are correct that the protest must be made while the illegal player is in the game. Once the illegal player leaves the game, no protest can be made. Further, if the other coach was going to file a protest, he must do it at the time. Further (again) the penalty for illegal player is the player and coach are ejected, and the player replaced by an eligible subsititute. The penalty is not a forfeit.

Didn't I say that already???

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Didn't I say that already???

Apparently he didn't finish typing as quickly as you did.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Didn't I say that already???

I may be slower, but I'm more succinct.

[kfrisbee]

I come to you guys because I know I will (usually) get the straight scoop!

By your definitions and my going to the sections in the rules that you pointed out, I have determined that there was an illegal substitution and IF the other coach would have protested before the error was corrected, the offending team would have received a warning and play would have continued after the error had been corrected.

Thank you all!!

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by kfrisbee

I come to you guys because I know I will (usually) get the straight scoop!

By your definitions and my going to the sections in the rules that you pointed out, I have determined that there was an illegal substitution and IF the other coach would have protested before the error was corrected, the offending team would have received a warning and play would have continued after the error had been corrected.

Thank you all!!

Why was this substitution illegal? Please provide the details that made her/him illegal.

[kfrisbee]

The substitution was illegal because the player re-entered the game on defense without the PU being notified. (She was still in the same batting order)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by kfrisbee

The substitution was illegal because the player re-entered the game on defense without the PU being notified. (She was still in the same batting order)

If she still had a legal re-entry remaining, that is an unreported substitute, not an illegal sub. There is a difference in the penalty, and also for the remedy by the offending team. For the unreported sub, all you had to do was report her, not take her out (unless, of course, you, as the coach, did not want her to be playing).

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by kfrisbee

The substitution was illegal because the player re-entered the game on defense without the PU being notified. (She was still in the same batting order)

As Tom has already noted, this is an unreported sub instead of being an illegal player, and two totally different rules apply. For USSSA, as with NFHS, the initial penalty for an unreported sub is to warn the coach of the offense, note the substitution on your line-up card, tell the opposing coach of the substitution and go on with the game.

This player had the right to be there, she just wasn't reported.

An illegal player is a player who has no right to occupy the position she is currently occupying, and whether or not she is reported doesn't matter, as she has no right to be there in the first place.

[kfrisbee]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

As Tom has already noted, this is an unreported sub instead of being an illegal player, and two totally different rules apply. For USSSA, as with NFHS, the initial penalty for an unreported sub is to warn the coach of the offense, note the substitution on your line-up card, tell the opposing coach of the substitution and go on with the game.

This player had the right to be there, she just wasn't reported.

An illegal player is a player who has no right to occupy the position she is currently occupying, and whether or not she is reported doesn't matter, as she has no right to be there in the first place.

I got it. Thank you all for the clarification!

[Dholloway1962]

Don't know if you have a rulebook or not but here is a link to the pdf version (btw, it is the 2009 edition):

http://www.usssa.com/usssa/usssa-gen...009FPRules.pdf