Lightning guidelines

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

It is our duty to postpone play for the Time allowed 30 minutes. I tell the Coach that my partner and I will be in the car. That's it, the coach gets training on what to do. It is not our responsibility. Do not direct anyone what they should do.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, it isn't. We suspend play for the time it is necessary for the safety issue to pass.

We instruct the teams that the game is suspended. I prefer that to postponed as I have found many to take that as it being rescheduled at a later date and leave, but that certainly isn't what we mean during a simple delay.

Originally Posted by xtremeump

No it isn't what ? Yes postponed is a better way to say it. Really what did I say that you can say " No, it Isn't" Wow simply stop the game and go to the car. You are really taking me to task. This is a FORUM for everyone... Not just you !!!!

Reading 101.

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Reading 101.

You really think this is a reading problem ??? I say follow whatever your guidelines are, people mentioned 30 minutes. Do not give any instructions on what to do. I think this is a CLONE problem. I told Mike that I would not do it anymore but you people can not help yourself. You make me do it. Get out there and do something wrong just once in your life. You just may say wow this is great. Look what I have been missing all of my CLONNE life.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

You really think this is a reading problem ??? I say follow whatever your guidelines are, people mentioned 30 minutes. Do not give any instructions on what to do. I think this is a CLONE problem. I told Mike that I would not do it anymore but you people can not help yourself. You make me do it. Get out there and do something wrong just once in your life. You just may say wow this is great. Look what I have been missing all of my CLONNE life.

What are you talking about? Steve is correct, umpires "suspend" games until all the safety issues are resolved. Could that lead to postponement or cancellation? Sure could, but that is not the umpire's immediate concern.

Too many people hang on 30 minutes. It used to be 20. It used to be only lightning and then they added "hearing thunder". Too many people hang on that too.

You like to talk about common sense, then that is what this is. Too often in this world alleged "experts" come to a conclusion, put them to paper and people treat them like the ten commandments.

If you know the area is clear of danger, play on. I don't need a piece of paper and a watch to tell me when it is safe. Even the lightning guidelines allow for use of equipment. Personally, I have used certified weather observers and ATC to clear the games to continue and don't sit on my hands waiting on a clock to hit 30 minutes.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What are you talking about? Steve is correct, umpires "suspend" games until all the safety issues are resolved. Could that lead to postponement or cancellation? Sure could, but that is not the umpire's immediate concern.

Too many people hang on 30 minutes. It used to be 20. It used to be only lightning and then they added "hearing thunder". Too many people hang on that too.

You like to talk about common sense, then that is what this is. Too often in this world alleged "experts" come to a conclusion, put them to paper and people treat them like the ten commandments.

If you know the area is clear of danger, play on. I don't need a piece of paper and a watch to tell me when it is safe. Even the lightning guidelines allow for use of equipment. Personally, I have used certified weather observers and ATC to clear the games to continue and don't sit on my hands waiting on a clock to hit 30 minutes.

I hope you are not an ASA umpire because if you are you had better adhere to the 30 minute rules as listed in the ASA Rules Book. That standard is just about universally adopted by most governing bodies. The OhioHSAA and MichigaHSAA use the same rule as the ASA does for all of its outdoor sports.

MTD, Sr.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I hope you are not an ASA umpire because if you are you had better adhere to the 30 minute rules as listed in the ASA Rules Book. That standard is just about universally adopted by most governing bodies. The OhioHSAA and MichigaHSAA use the same rule as the ASA does for all of its outdoor sports.

MTD, Sr.

That may be true in your area relating to state high school adoptions. Not at all true here.

The ASA Rules Book doesn't have a lightning rule that must be adhered to. It calls it a guideline, and says "should", not shall or must.

Nor is it listed as a rule in the Rules Book. It is a portion of the "Safety Awareness Guide".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I hope you are not an ASA umpire because if you are you had better adhere to the 30 minute rules as listed in the ASA Rules Book. That standard is just about universally adopted by most governing bodies. The OhioHSAA and MichigaHSAA use the same rule as the ASA does for all of its outdoor sports.

MTD, Sr.

And if you read the ASA book like a good ASA umpire does, you will notice that ASA gave alternatives to the "30-minute" guideline in the 2012 book. They also encourage using common sense in judging weather issues.

In championship play in either 2010 or 2011, we suspended the 18U A winner's final due to a little rain, some thunder and lightning. After it stopped and the clouds started to break-up, my PU, who is an ATC and certified weather observer called the airport control tower 30 miles to the North of the field. The ATC to whom he was talking has a DD in softball and knew exactly where the field was.

With both coaches listening to the conversation with me (UIC), the ATC told us the storm had cleared the area, there was no more notable activity for more than 100 miles to the South. During the discussion, the ATC noted that they have already rerouted planes back into the area (something that wouldn't have happened had there been any danger).

Asked the coaches if they would be ready to go in 5 and they both agreed. The total time since the last thunder or lightning was less than 20 minutes.

In five, we were playing again. One parent got in my face telling me I could not start the game up again. Told her we were cleared to go by the highest authority in the area and if she wanted to talked to her child's coach, she should. She was screaming that lightning was hitting the ground. I told her that was pretty good since the airport told us the closest possible activity was 10 miles North of the airport which made it 40 miles away from us. She told me she was going to complain to ASA and I told her where to find the number. Both coaches disclaimed any association with this lady. Did I happen to mention that it was so clear, the stars were visible in every direction as far as you can see?

And if you have ever worked in Lakeland, they will stop games 5 minutes prior to the storm hitting the area and have you back on the field within 10 minutes after the storm has passed. These people are pros and know exactly what they are doing. A 30 minute clock is not going to make it any more dangerous or safer.

In no way am I endorsing or suggesting people taking any unnecessary chances with weather.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What are you talking about? Steve is correct, umpires "suspend" games until all the safety issues are resolved. Could that lead to postponement or cancellation? Sure could, but that is not the umpire's immediate concern.

Too many people hang on 30 minutes. It used to be 20. It used to be only lightning and then they added "hearing thunder". Too many people hang on that too.

You like to talk about common sense, then that is what this is. Too often in this world alleged "experts" come to a conclusion, put them to paper and people treat them like the ten commandments.

If you know the area is clear of danger, play on. I don't need a piece of paper and a watch to tell me when it is safe. Even the lightning guidelines allow for use of equipment. Personally, I have used certified weather observers and ATC to clear the games to continue and don't sit on my hands waiting on a clock to hit 30 minutes.

You are aware that strikes can occur as far as 15 miles away from the "storm" that is causing them right.

If you fail to adhere to the guidelines listed in the rules you are putting yourself at risk of not being covered by liability insurance should something happen. 30 minutes is a guideline based on scientific research, not a randomly selected number.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

You are aware that strikes can occur as far as 15 miles away from the "storm" that is causing them right.

If you fail to adhere to the guidelines listed in the rules you are putting yourself at risk of not being covered by liability insurance should something happen. 30 minutes is a guideline based on scientific research, not a randomly selected number.

No, that is not correct. You are covered by your insurance.

You do what you feel comfortable doing, that's fin. I'll keep going with the pros. Thank you.

[scrounge]

They reroute planes primarily for dangerous winds and microbursts. An aircraft can and does take lightning strikes. An 11 yr old can't. Children have been KILLED by lightning strikes up to 20 miles away.

Yes, if you have expert knowledge or lightning detectors avail, you can get a more precise answer. But otherwise, it is the height of irresponsibility to ignore the guidelines. I don't care if my insurance covers me or not - I'm not about to risk a child's funeral for a game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by scrounge

They reroute planes primarily for dangerous winds and microbursts. An aircraft can and does take lightning strikes. An 11 yr old can't. Children have been KILLED by lightning strikes up to 20 miles away.

Yes, if you have expert knowledge or lightning detectors avail, you can get a more precise answer. But otherwise, it is the height of irresponsibility to ignore the guidelines. I don't care if my insurance covers me or not - I'm not about to risk a child's funeral for a game.

Yes, planes have survived lightning strikes, but not all of them. Lightning has taken down planes. But because it is a rarity, doesn't mean ATC challenges Mother Nature. The comment was from the guy who moves these things professionally for over two decades.

And really, playing a sympathy card using children?

Better make sure I never tell anyone about the meteorite I saw AND continued to play.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, that is not correct. You are covered by your insurance.

You do what you feel comfortable doing, that's fin. I'll keep going with the pros. Thank you.

I will let you fight that situation with your insurance. Me, I will be waiting the 30 minutes provided in the rules an guidelines of every organization sponsoring outdoor sports.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I will let you fight that situation with your insurance. Me, I will be waiting the 30 minutes provided in the rules an guidelines of every organization sponsoring outdoor sports.

There is no fight. In ASA, your insurance covers you even if you are stupid. They may not like it and in the long run may cause an increase in the premium which will affect all umpires, but your insurance is intact.

Claims that your insurance is void if you permit use of an illegal or non-approved piece of equipment in the game, or if you umpire two teams that want to continue playing after the game was "officially" ended due a forfeit and the many other "what ifs" people bring up are just tales used to not umpire such games.

This has been clearly stated at every presentation (20+) offered by Bollinger (not some local "expert") at an ASA meeting or clinic I have attended. What is also true is that it may be suggested you retain your own legal council should a claim exceed the limit of coverage, but that would be true in any case. It is this part that I choose not to work such type of games. Just because I have insurance doesn't mean I am willing to test its coverage.

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yes, planes have survived lightning strikes, but not all of them. Lightning has taken down planes. But because it is a rarity, doesn't mean ATC challenges Mother Nature. The comment was from the guy who moves these things professionally for over two decades.

And really, playing a sympathy card using children?

Better make sure I never tell anyone about the meteorite I saw AND continued to play.

Well, we're primarily officiating games involving children, so I hardly see that as "playing a sympathy card". And to equate lightning safety delays to a meteorite is absurd and ridiculous. I see no further purpose debating this. You do what you feel comfortable with, I'll do the same. And I don't care whether insurance covers me or not, I'm not putting a child's life, an adult's life, and sure as hell my own in danger for the sake of a few minutes of a game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by scrounge

Well, we're primarily officiating games involving children, so I hardly see that as "playing a sympathy card".

Maybe you are, I'm not.

And to equate lightning safety delays to a meteorite is absurd and ridiculous.

I wasn't. It was a comparison in the ludicrous, rare examples people pull out of the air when people disagree. Hey, want to discuss the plus and minuses of pot? How about taste great or less filling?

And I don't care whether insurance covers me or not, I'm not putting a child's life, an adult's life, and sure as hell my own in danger for the sake of a few minutes of a game.

And at no time did I suggest anyone do so, but you would have known that if you read the posts without a predetermined position.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just because I have insurance doesn't mean I am willing to test its coverage.

You have no problem arguing that not abiding by the 30 minute guideline is ok, but you also state "Just because I have insurance doesn't mean I am willing to test its coverage." Makes me wonder about you.