F2 drops ball on tag while blocking plate

[snorman75]

What a thread.

For this play, ONLY, do we have obstruction? I say no, the runner made it home safe. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball. If the runner does not make it, well then we are off to the races of this thread. But as soon as she made it home without being tagged you kill the delayed dead ball and call her safe.


Just a little logic theory: We can not have obstruction since she was safe at home. There are no bases to be awarded, and she scored. How was she obstructed from advancing to home? Since she made it you can not have her safe on obstruction, her making it home wipes everything that happened before that away. (Just think about it outside of the rules)

I want to read my rule book on another view too. More to come maybe.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by snorman75

What a thread.

For this play, ONLY, do we have obstruction? I say no, the runner made it home safe. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball. If the runner does not make it, well then we are off to the races of this thread. But as soon as she made it home without being tagged you kill the delayed dead ball and call her safe.

Never mind the point of why call her safe on Obstruction when that only complicates the situation, when she is safe anyway.

I want to read my rule book on another view too. More to come maybe.

If she's safe we don't kill the play. The only time we kill it, is if the runner is out on a play where there is obstruction and we had her protected to the point where she was tagged out. Why kill the play if she is safe? The defense may have an opportunity to get an out at another base.


Never Mind! I re-read this. I thought you meant kill the play. Now I see you meant kill the delay dead ball!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by snorman75

What a thread.

For this play, ONLY, do we have obstruction? I say no, the runner made it home safe. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball. If the runner does not make it, well then we are off to the races of this thread. But as soon as she made it home without being tagged you kill the delayed dead ball and call her safe.


Just a little logic theory: We can not have obstruction since she was safe at home. There are no bases to be awarded, and she scored. How was she obstructed from advancing to home? Since she made it you can not have her safe on obstruction, her making it home wipes everything that happened before that away. (Just think about it outside of the rules)

I want to read my rule book on another view too. More to come maybe.

Obstruction is Obstruction
Award is Award
Non-Award is Non-Award

Three separate things, OBS can occur even when there is no play on that runner or none at all. The Award or Non-Award is then umpire judgement on what would have happened without the OBS.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by snorman75

What a thread.

For this play, ONLY, do we have obstruction? I say no, the runner made it home safe. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball. If the runner does not make it, well then we are off to the races of this thread. But as soon as she made it home without being tagged you kill the delayed dead ball and call her safe.


Just a little logic theory: We can not have obstruction since she was safe at home. There are no bases to be awarded, and she scored. How was she obstructed from advancing to home? Since she made it you can not have her safe on obstruction, her making it home wipes everything that happened before that away. (Just think about it outside of the rules)

I want to read my rule book on another view too. More to come maybe.

My concern here is that you seem to believe that it is not OBS because the runner scored.

That is wrong. There was OBS. The fact that no bases are awarded does not mean the violation did not occur or should be recognized by the umpire.

[snorman75]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

My concern here is that you seem to believe that it is not OBS because the runner scored.

That is wrong. There was OBS. The fact that no bases are awarded does not mean the violation did not occur or should be recognized by the umpire.

Yes, there is obstruction, until she touches the awarded base, then you no longer have obstruction . If you are fast enough to declare it before she touches home, OK, but the second she safely makes the awarded base, the delayed dead ball is removed. THE PLAY IS NOT DEAD. If you yell "Obstruction the runner is safe", you MUST kill the play. Which the ASA rule book clearly tells you not to do if the runner makes it to the awarded base.

Lets say we have the same play at second base. Ball beats runner, legal slide knocks the ball lose. The fielder clearly obstructs the runner, but only in a way you award 2nd base only. You delay dead ball signal and verbally award second. Runner beats the tag at second and makes it there safely. But for some reason she starts to run to 3rd. I hope you did not kill the play, because she is at risk of being put out.

So why would you kill the play at home with a obstruction safe call? You call her safe and ball is still in play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by snorman75

You know what. I changed my mind totally. There is no obstruction at all. Not even a delayed. The definition of obstruction says " A fielder, who impedes the progress of a runner or batter-runner who is legally running the bases unless..."

Since the runner made it to the base, progress could not had been impeded.

But in reality yes, there is obstruction, it still is a delayed dead ball. If you are fast enough to declare it before she touches home, OK, but the second she safely makes the awarded base, the delayed dead ball is removed. THE PLAY IS NOT DEAD.

No one has said it was.

Lets say we have the same play at second base. Ball beats runner, legal slide knocks the ball lose. The fielder clearly obstructs the runner, but only in a way you award 2nd base only. You delay dead ball signal and verbally award second.

No, that would not be correct

Runner beats the tag at second and makes it there safely. But for some reason she starts to run to 3rd. I hope you did not kill the play, because she is at risk of being put out.

So why would you kill the play at home with a obstruction safe call? You call her safe and ball is still in play.

Okay, next concern is that the play is not "killed" anywhere along the way. What makes you think it is?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by snorman75

Yes, there is obstruction, until she touches the awarded base, then you no longer have obstruction . If you are fast enough to declare it before she touches home, OK, but the second she safely makes the awarded base, the delayed dead ball is removed. THE PLAY IS NOT DEAD. If you yell "Obstruction the runner is safe", you MUST kill the play. Which the ASA rule book clearly tells you not to do if the runner makes it to the awarded base.

Lets say we have the same play at second base. Ball beats runner, legal slide knocks the ball lose. The fielder clearly obstructs the runner, but only in a way you award 2nd base only. You delay dead ball signal and verbally award second. Runner beats the tag at second and makes it there safely. But for some reason she starts to run to 3rd. I hope you did not kill the play, because she is at risk of being put out.

So why would you kill the play at home with a obstruction safe call? You call her safe and ball is still in play.

You do have the rule confused here. It would suck for me if me advocating a little common sense (something which lacks in a b/w rules forum, especially this one, for obvious reasons) confused you on the rule.

IF there was OBS on this play, it should be signaled, the fact the runner was safe at a (potentially awarded) base would not negate the correct signal being OBS.

A downside to seeing obs on this play is inserting yourself into this play unnecessarily and confusing the teams, fans, coaches.. and hell, even other umpires. Some umpires umpire just to insert themselves into the play, look for boogers to pitck, and read a rule then run out to enforce it.. forgetting a little common sense. This is very common among many umpires here. Bear that in mind as you read here then go onto the field. Mitigate their "teachings" with common sense, and you'll do great. I advocate prudence and common sense... but if I were to call OBS on this play, the arm would be out, because that is appropriate and correct.

[snorman75]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

You do have the rule confused here. It would suck for me if me advocating a little common sense (something which lacks in a b/w rules forum, especially this one, for obvious reasons) confused you on the rule.

IF there was OBS on this play, it should be signaled, the fact the runner was safe at a (potentially awarded) base would not negate the correct signal being OBS.

A downside to seeing obs on this play is inserting yourself into this play unnecessarily and confusing the teams, fans, coaches.. and hell, even other umpires. Some umpires umpire just to insert themselves into the play, look for boogers to pitck, and read a rule then run out to enforce it.. forgetting a little common sense. This is very common among many umpires here. Bear that in mind as you read here then go onto the field. Mitigate their "teachings" with common sense, and you'll do great. I advocate prudence and common sense... but if I were to call OBS on this play, the arm would be out, because that is appropriate and correct.

Like I said?? Arm goes out until she is safe at awarded base, then it goes down, and ball is live. If she was to be tagged/forced out before reaching awarded base, you kill the play and "enforce" the OB.

We all agree with the OB and the delayed dead ball, I think the problem is with how you call her safe. If you say "obstruction the runner is safe" and she is NOT tagged/forced out, that is incorrect. Since you have to kill the play to "enforce" the OB. Once she makes the awarded base you kill the delayed dead ball and you have a live ball.

I am sure under the gun we all call it that way.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by snorman75

Like I said?? Arm goes out until she is safe at awarded base, then it goes down, and ball is live. If she was to be tagged/forced out before reaching awarded base, you kill the play and "enforce" the OB.

We all agree with the OB and the delayed dead ball, I think the problem is with how you call her safe. If you say "obstruction the runner is safe" and she is NOT tagged/forced out, that is incorrect.

Absolutely, but I've never seen nor heard of an umpire doing that. When a still-protected OBS runner is tagged, the call is either dead ball.

Since you have to kill the play to "enforce" the OB. Once she makes the awarded base you kill the delayed dead ball and you have a live ball.

Think someone else made this note. Maybe part of the confusion is the term, "kill" the delayed dead ball as opposed to "drop" the DDB or OBS call.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Think someone else made this note. Maybe part of the confusion is the term, "kill" the delayed dead ball as opposed to "drop" the DDB or OBS call.

hmm interesting comment.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by snorman75

I am sure under the gun we all call it that way.

Some probably call this play a lot smarter than they are pretending in this thread. I would hope so.

Others, not so sure.

[ronald]

I am wondering if some have doubts as to the meaning of the word impede. Hinder brings them all together. Obviously if the cathcer is directly in front of the plate and I am in front of the catcher and have to reach around at night reach directly, straight to home plate, I have been impeded and/or hindered. I believe that is in the OP.

Main Entry: 1hin·der
Pronunciation: \ˈhin-dər\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): hin·dered; hin·der·ing \-d(ə-)riŋ\
Etymology: Middle English hindren, from Old English hindrian; akin to Old English hinder behind
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
1 : to make slow or difficult the progress of : hamper
2 : to hold back : check
intransitive verb
: to delay, impede, or prevent action
— hin·der·er \-dər-ər\ noun
synonyms hinder, impede, obstruct, block mean to interfere with the activity or progress of. hinder stresses causing harmful or annoying delay or interference with progress . impede implies making forward progress difficult by clogging, hampering, or fettering . obstruct implies interfering with something in motion or in progress by the sometimes intentional placing of obstacles in the way . block implies complete obstruction to passage or progress .

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Absolutely, but I've never seen nor heard of an umpire doing that. When a still-protected OBS runner is tagged, the call is either dead ball.



Think someone else made this note. Maybe part of the confusion is the term, "kill" the delayed dead ball as opposed to "drop" the DDB or OBS call.

So this is not correct to my understanding. I'm sure it's wrong in the NCAA and think all other rulesets also. As I had this explained to me by a guy who does college ball, if you call OBS in NCAA you know you're killing it at the end because you have to issue a warning (or dq the player).

But even at my level, I always understood that if I call obstruction the ball is dead once all action has stopped: I've got dead ball. Obstruction on the short stop. Then I expect the plate umpire to signal it back to live.
________
Wong Amat Tower Condominium Pattaya

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by youngump

So this is not correct to my understanding. I'm sure it's wrong in the NCAA and think all other rulesets also. As I had this explained to me by a guy who does college ball, if you call OBS in NCAA you know you're killing it at the end because you have to issue a warning (or dq the player).

But even at my level, I always understood that if I call obstruction the ball is dead once all action has stopped: I've got dead ball. Obstruction on the short stop. Then I expect the plate umpire to signal it back to live.

I do not work college so, I do not speak to that. In ASA and NFHS, you would have a dead ball only when needed. If the SS obstructs the runner and you protect her to 3rd, once she gets there, you simply drop your arm.

As for your partner echoing you, he may or may not see you signal or see the obs.

Joe in Missouri

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by snorman75

Yes, there is obstruction, until she touches the awarded base, then you no longer have obstruction . If you are fast enough to declare it before she touches home, OK, but the second she safely makes the awarded base, the delayed dead ball is removed. THE PLAY IS NOT DEAD. If you yell "Obstruction the runner is safe", you MUST kill the play. Which the ASA rule book clearly tells you not to do if the runner makes it to the awarded base.

I got a bit lost in the posts after this one, but does this say you kill a play when an obstructed runner is safe?
If so. no way.

Also, there still was OBS even if no award, a point I tried to make earlier.

Another thing, why do we get wrapped up in hme plate being any different than any other base for tags, OBS, INT, etc. ?