LBR when does it start?

[LIIRISHMAN]

I had a situation that nearly resulted in an ejection. 12 and under ASA. R1 on 3rd base B/R walks and rounds 1st heading to 2nd pitcher has ball in circle. R1 was off 3rd base until B/R rounded 1st and broke for home. R1 scored and defensive coach went off. I really should have run him but our UIC has asked us to hold back ejecting a coach (Youth league politics ). My reading of the LBR is it doesn't come in to effect until B/R hits 1st. Am I correct in my interpetation?

[Skahtboi]

Yes. There was a thread on here discussing this very topic just a couple of weeks ago. The LBR is in effect when the pitcher has the ball in the circle and the BR reaches 1st. (Providing, of course, that the pitcher is making no play on any runner.)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

I had a situation that nearly resulted in an ejection. 12 and under ASA. R1 on 3rd base B/R walks and rounds 1st heading to 2nd pitcher has ball in circle. R1 was off 3rd base until B/R rounded 1st and broke for home. R1 scored and defensive coach went off. I really should have run him but our UIC has asked us to hold back ejecting a coach (Youth league politics ). My reading of the LBR is it doesn't come in to effect until B/R hits 1st. Am I correct in my interpetation?

If you mean that R1 was not stopped after BR reached 1st, IOW ran immediately whne the LBR was in effect, then yes, in most rules. I'm also assuming you are saying the DC wanted R1 out for stopping, but it was before BR reached 1st.

I believe LL is different and maybe others in the endless alphabet game and is a relatively new aspect, however.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If you mean that R1 was not stopped after BR reached 1st, IOW ran immediately whne the LBR was in effect, then yes, in most rules. I'm also assuming you are saying the DC wanted R1 out for stopping, but it was before BR reached 1st.

Really wouldn't make any difference since the runner is allowed one stop based on your assumption that the runner started immediately as the BR reached 1B.

[Paul L]

Under Little League's interpretation of their ambiguous lookback rule, on a walk, the runners are bound by the lookback rule as soon as the ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle, even if batter-runner has not yet reached first. Not so in Fed or ASA.
See post #4, by scroobs, of this thread: Little League Look-Back Rule

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Really wouldn't make any difference since the runner is allowed one stop based on your assumption that the runner started immediately as the BR reached 1B.

If my assumptions were correct, then my answer was correct, but wanted to confirm that, with the OP, to be sure not to mislead.

The wording "R1 on 3rd base B/R walks and rounds 1st heading to 2nd pitcher has ball in circle. R1 was off 3rd base until B/R rounded 1st and broke for home" is a little vague on sequence and timing.

[LIIRISHMAN]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If my assumptions were correct, then my answer was correct, but wanted to confirm that, with the OP, to be sure not to mislead.

The wording "R1 on 3rd base B/R walks and rounds 1st heading to 2nd pitcher has ball in circle. R1 was off 3rd base until B/R rounded 1st and broke for home" is a little vague on sequence and timing.

R1 had taken her normal lead after the pitch. B/R was walked and jogging down to 1B. The ball was returned to pitcher in the circle.R1 was off 3B for 3 seconds and not moving until B/R hit 1B then R1 made a break for home. Coach's argument was R1 was out fror failure not to move while pitcher was in circle.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

R1 had taken her normal lead after the pitch. B/R was walked and jogging down to 1B. The ball was returned to pitcher in the circle.R1 was off 3B for 3 seconds and not moving until B/R hit 1B then R1 made a break for home. Coach's argument was R1 was out fror failure not to move while pitcher was in circle.

Speaking ASA, coach was wrong. R1 was not obligated to move until BR reached 1B.

re: "Little League's ... ambiguous lookback rule"

I don't have a LL rule book, but it was not that long ago that the ASA book was similarly vague. ASA only added the statement about the LBR not being in effect until the BR reaches 1B maybe 5 years ago?

I can recall this exact discussion several years ago on this board regarding ASA. The ASA interp that I recall was that the LBR went into effect for each runner individually, which would mean the coach would have been correct in making his argument above.

That's not the way it is now, though.

[Paul L]

2008 Little League softball rule:
"7.08 - Any runner is out when -
. . .
(a)(5) . . . When a runner is off base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within the eight (8) foot radius circle, the runner must immediately attempt to advance to the next base or return to the base the runner is entitled. Note 2: If the pitcher has possession of the ball within the pitcher's circle, and is not making a play (a fake throw is considered a play), runners not in contact with their bases must immediately attempt to advance or return to base.
PENALTY: The ball is dead. 'No Pitch' is declared, and the runner is out. Eight (8) foot radius circle must be properly marked."

[Dakota]

Thanks for posting it. It actually doesn't seem that ambiguous to me. In the situation in the OP, under LL rules, R1 was out.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Paul L

2008 Little League softball rule:
"7.08 - PENALTY: The ball is dead. 'No Pitch' is declared, and the runner is out. Eight (8) foot radius circle must be properly marked."

Anyone have a clue why "no pitch" would be declared? If a runner is off the base, the pitcher shouldn't even be allowed to step up on the plate.

WMB

[BretMan]

Maybe the rest of rule "7.08" (the part that wasn't posted) has something to do with runners leaving base early on a pitched ball.

Or, maybe the Little League guys are so baseball-oriented that they're really, really confused when it comes to softball rules!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Maybe the rest of rule "7.08" (the part that wasn't posted) has something to do with runners leaving base early on a pitched ball.

Or, maybe the Little League guys are so baseball-oriented that they're really, really confused when it comes to softball rules!

Not so fast on the baseball stuff.

From the ASA look-back rule:

EFFECT - Section 7-T (1-3): The ball is dead. “No pitch” is declared when applicable, and the runner is out. If more than one runner is off base, when one is called out, the ball is dead and other runners are returned to the last base touched. One runner only may be called out.

From the NFHS look-back rule:

PENALTY: (Arts. 2, 3, 4) The ball is dead. "No pitch" is declared when applicable, and the runner is out. If two runners or more are off their bases, when one is called out, the ball is dead and other runners are returned to the last base touched. Only one runner may be called out.

Off-hand, I can't think of a time when it would be applicable.

[Paul L]

Ambiguity arises mainly because the little league rule does not have the section about rounding and overrunning found in NFHS rule 8-7-4 and ASA rule 8-7-T. I first raised this issue months ago when two successive little league coaches contended that if a walked BR rounded first, she was committed to attempt to reach second and could not stop and return to first. The LL rule does not specifically permit this, and one could argue that by omitting the rounding-and-overrunning section, the rule was intended to prohibit such actions. What happens if the batter-runner overruns first, then moves toward second? LL 7.08(a)(5) doesn't say.

Also, ASA and NFHS specify that the runner may stop once. LL omits this, but reads it into the rule by interpretation. Otherwise, a runner slowly returning to a base could not stop and attempt to advance.

ASA and NFHS also specify that stopping at a base requires the runner to stay there; LL omits this as well. The LL rule appears to apply only to runners off base when the pitcher has the ball in the circle. No LL rule language prohibits a runner already stopped at a base when the pitcher gets the ball in the circle from then attempting to advance.

ASA and NFHS also specify that only one runner can be called out; LL omits this provision. So is it read in by interpretation? Or are double and triple plays possible?

I think of the look-back rule as the stop-once rule. Absent clarification, I will treat it in LL just like ASA/NFHS, except for applying it to runners on base even before the BR gets to first. Why did LL not adopt the ASA/NFHS rule in its entirety?

Actually, the whole rule everywhere is unnecessary and anti-competitive, imho, and should be abolished, but that’s a whole other thread.

[Paul L]

Yes, the omitted portion of 7.08(a)(5) is the no-leaving-early rule.

And I'm still wondering if the penalty requires the runner called out to properly mark the circle personally.