Nsa Boo

[David Emerling]

Do we have any NSA gurus out there?

I was reading through the NSA batting-out-of-order rule (Rule 7 - Sec 2). It says that all outs obtained during the improper's bat are kept. Would that include the out made by the improper batter?

Let's say the leadoff batter in an inning is an improper batter. She grounds out. Before a pitch to the next batter, the defense appeals that they batted out of order.

The proper batter is out AND the out made by the improper batter is maintained? Two outs?

Is that correct?

Thanks!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Do we have any NSA gurus out there?

I was reading through the NSA batting-out-of-order rule (Rule 7 - Sec 2). It says that all outs obtained during the improper's bat are kept. Would that include the out made by the improper batter?

Let's say the leadoff batter in an inning is an improper batter. She grounds out. Before a pitch to the next batter, the defense appeals that they batted out of order.

The proper batter is out AND the out made by the improper batter is maintained? Two outs?

Is that correct?

Thanks!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Not sure about NSA (though it sounds like it), but this has been true in ASA for a few years now.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not sure about NSA (though it sounds like it), but this has been true in ASA for a few years now.

I knew that was true in ASA, but I'm not sure about NSA.

I'm getting ready to help a friend coach an 18U team during July 4th weekend in St. Louis and it is going to be an NSA tournament. I was browsing through the NSA online rulebook and it wasn't clear about what you do with the improper batter's out. It says you get to keep all outs on the play and, since they do not say (as some rulebooks do) that "the proper batter's out supersedes any out made by the improper batter", I guess the NSA does it just like the ASA.

Thanks.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[greymule]

Last time I did an NSA tourney was a couple of years ago. I remember several key rules differences, but BOO wasn't one of them.

Fed, ASA, and NCAA all handle BOO differently, though. NCAA pretty much follows OBR, where it is sometimes to the advantage of the defense not to appeal.

[Dholloway1962]

I Read the NSA rule (don't call it but found the book online) and it is pretty clear all outs stand, including the incorrect batter if they are put out.

USSSA has it so that:

The correct batter (batter who should have batted) is declared out

If the batter was put out, the out will be rescinded because of the correct batter’s out.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by greymule

Last time I did an NSA tourney was a couple of years ago. I remember several key rules differences, but BOO wasn't one of them.

Fed, ASA, and NCAA all handle BOO differently, though. NCAA pretty much follows OBR, where it is sometimes to the advantage of the defense not to appeal.

Want to get a headache? Read the NSA "Courtesy Runner" rule. There is no possible way to make it any more convoluted. Talk about taking something that should be fundamentally straight forward and turning it into a three ring circus.

From the NSA rulebook:

COURTESY RUNNER: The player in the batting order where the last out was recorded or any player not currently in the game may replace the current (the player physically playing the position when the 3rd out was recorded) pitcher or catcher as a courtesy runner at any time. The pitcher and catcher will remain in the game and the courtesy runner will retain all substitution rights (if the courtesy runner has substitution rights). A player can be used only once per inning as a courtesy runner. Should the player that made the last recorded out be on base for any reason or is the pitcher or catcher, or batting or has already been a courtesy runner in that inning; the new courtesy runner would be determined by going back previous outs to the next allowable courtesy runner or to any player not currently in the game. If in the first inning a courtesy runner is used for either the pitcher or catcher (who are listed in the line up when the line ups are turned in) and there are no outs recorded, the courtesy runner will be the player furthest removed from the pitcher or catcher needing the courtesy runner or any player not currently in the game. NOTE: A pitcher or catcher may be used as a courtesy runner and a player with no substitution privileges may also be a courtesy runner as long as the player has not been ejected. The pitcher or catcher may return to run for themselves if the courtesy runner is due up to bat.


I kid you not. Ridiculous!

How 'bout this scenario:

Inning #1:
Batter 1: walks
Batter 2: walks
Batter 3: walks
Batter 4: K
Batter 5: K
Batter #1 is picked off 3rd base for the third out to end the inning.

Inning #2:
Batter 6:walks (catcher)
Batter 7:walks
Batter 8:walks
Coach wants a courtesy runner for Batter #6 on 3rd base.
Who made the last out? Batter #1! So she becomes the courtesy runner. But this is only determined after meticulously breaking down what happened during the previous inning. It's not obvious.
Batter 9:K
Batter #1 is now due up, but she's on 3rd base as a courtesy runner. So now the catcher has to run from herself as the courtesy runner comes in to bat.

Could this possibly be more screwed up? Can you imagine trying to keep track of this as the umpire?

The penalty for using an incorrect courtesy runner is ejection of the head coach.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[BigUmpJohn]

I've been working NSA for about 6 years now. It's pretty big here in Pittsburgh. Yes with BOO you can get 2 outs on the same person in the same play. And the CR rule reads as being convoluted (as does quite a bit of the NSA rulebook) but it plays out pretty easily. In your situation, the catcher can come back and run for themselves or you go back to the previous out which would be B5's K. We don't keep track of who can CR. We assume the coaches know what's going on and the opposing book/coaches do bring it to our attention when something isn't kosher. All we have to do is keep track on the lineup card of who CR'ed during the inning so we have some record and that we make sure they don't run twice in the inning.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

How 'bout this scenario:

Inning #1:
Batter 1: walks
Batter 2: walks
Batter 3: walks
Batter 4: K
Batter 5: K
Batter #1 is picked off 3rd base for the third out to end the inning.

Inning #2:
Batter 6:walks (catcher)
Batter 7:walks
Batter 8:walks
Coach wants a courtesy runner for Batter #6 on 3rd base.
Who made the last out? Batter #1! So she becomes the courtesy runner. But this is only determined after meticulously breaking down what happened during the previous inning. It's not obvious.
Batter 9:K
Batter #1 is now due up, but she's on 3rd base as a courtesy runner. So now the catcher has to run from herself as the courtesy runner comes in to bat.

Could this possibly be more screwed up? Can you imagine trying to keep track of this as the umpire?

The penalty for using an incorrect courtesy runner is ejection of the head coach.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David, isn't that just the last out? Heck, just go to the official book, ask who the last out was, and voila that is thecurtesy runner.

[wadeintothem]

Wow, those are some crazy codified rec league c/r rules.

[greymule]

Yes with BOO you can get 2 outs on the same person in the same play.

How can that happen?

[BigUmpJohn]

Improper batter grounds out, defense legally appeals BOO, the defensive out on the improper batter will stand and you'll get the out on the person who should've been the proper batter.

Edited after I found out I was wrong... it happens...

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by BigUmpJohn

Improper batter grounds out, defense legally appeals BOO, the defensive out will stand along with the out for BOO.

(bad answer button) there are two outs, but on two different people. One out is te person who batted and was out on the ground out. The other person who is out is the batter who sould have batted.

[BigUmpJohn]

Yeah you're right. That's what I get for not thinking before I write.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by BigUmpJohn

Yeah you're right. That's what I get for not thinking before I write.

U have no idea how often I have said the same thing.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by BigUmpJohn

And the CR rule reads as being convoluted (as does quite a bit of the NSA rulebook) but it plays out pretty easily. In your situation, the catcher can come back and run for themselves or you go back to the previous out which would be B5's K.

Batter #1 must be used as the CR. But when Batter #1 comes up to bat, I do not think you have any other option other than to return the catcher out to run. Are you saying you can pick a DIFFERENT courtesy runner when Batter #1 comes in to bat?

We don't keep track of who can CR. We assume the coaches know what's going on and the opposing book/coaches do bring it to our attention when something isn't kosher. All we have to do is keep track on the lineup card of who CR'ed during the inning so we have some record and that we make sure they don't run twice in the inning.

The penalty for screwing it up, according to the rulebook, is ejection of the coach. It doesn't say that the runner is out or ejected. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any guidance as to what to do for an illegal courtesy runner OTHER than eject the coach.

I still think the rule is far to complex.

Why not just say: "A courtesy runner can be used for the pitcher or catcher at any time. The courtesy runner should be the player who last finished their turn at-bat (or the substitute for that player). If the last player to complete their turn at-bat is either the pitcher or catcher, then it should be the previous batter."

Using the last recorded out requires everybody to keep track of things when an inning ends in an unusual way - like a pickoff or any play on some runner other than the batter-runner. Even if the inning ended in such a mundane way as R1 being forced out at 2nd for the 3rd out. The batter did NOT make the last out.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN