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Old Tue May 20, 2008, 09:06am
Al Al is offline
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Intentional, or not intentional?

Hi all,

I want to thank all those that give of their time to make intelligible clarifications on so many plays and situations which sooner or later will make their way to umpires everywhere. You guys and ladies have helped me improve in the knowledge of rules, mach, and the proper way to deal with coaches, players, and fans.

Two saturdays ago I was watching an adult ladies slow pitch tournament game. There were no outs and one runner on 1st. The batter pops up an infield fly ball a few feet on the fair side of 1st. Not wanting to be doubled up the runner holds to her base. The first baseman drops the ball, runs to tag 1st for the out, then throws to 2nd and gets a tag out there. I asked the PU between innings why he didn't call an intentional dropped ball. He reply was "it's a difficult call to make cause there is no way to know for sure." I didn't say anything more and left it at that. I was wondering how many adults drop simple pop flies right to them? There was no argument on this double play, which surprised me. I think the proper call would have been to call the BR out and put the lady that was called out at 2nd back to 1st base. To make it clearer...Here's how she caught the ball... She did not get under it with the glove up, but she let the ball drop into her glove in front of her like a basket catch with the front her glove pointing downward. Then the ball rolled out of her glove directly in front of her. What would you guys have called? ....Thanks, ...Al
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Old Tue May 20, 2008, 09:19am
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GUIDING the ball to the ground is not against the rules. But in that situation, if the ball gets into the glove and I think there is even a small possibility she let it fall out, Im calling a catch and killing the play. I havent had a tough time selling it, because most of the time its fairly obvious.
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Old Tue May 20, 2008, 09:36am
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Re

I don't think you can call an intentional drop in this case because, as azbigdawg pointed out, guiding the ball to the ground is not against the rules. With the face of the glove down you can't call this a catch.

Batters need to be hustling down the line to avoid these situations.
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Old Tue May 20, 2008, 12:06pm
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At one of our local clinics, this kind of play had been discussed. For it to be an intentionally dropped ball, the ball must hit the glove. Now, it's possible that our trainer and UIC glossed over whether or not the pocket of the glove needs to be facing the ball. I'd have to see this play in person to judge the intent.

However, that's what we as umpires are paid to do: judge plays. If you judge that the fielder allowed the ball to hit her glove to set up a cheap double play, dead ball it and call the BR out (ASA). There's a difference between intentionally dropping a fly ball and "oops."

I've only made this call once in over 15 years.
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I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Tue May 20, 2008, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp
At one of our local clinics, this kind of play had been discussed. For it to be an intentionally dropped ball, the ball must hit the glove. .
I know what you are trying to say, but will expand a bit on it. It does take more than just the ball hitting the glove, i.e. fielder diving to catch, hits it but doesnt catch it= not intentional drop.
A fielder is allowed to let the catchable ball drop untouched, then try to turn two. Intentionally not catching it by letting it drop untouched is not an intentional drop. Many people (Im not including you) are confused by the word "intentional". The OP is a HTBT with regards to the fielders actions....
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Old Tue May 20, 2008, 12:31pm
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The ASA interpretation is that an intentionally dropped ball must first be caught and THEN intentionally dropped.

Since the BR is out if the ball is caught, it would seem what ASA is doing is ruling the ball dead to prevent deceiving the runner into believing the force is on.

Otherwise, the ASA ruling makes little sense (to me, anyway).
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Old Tue May 20, 2008, 06:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
Not wanting to be doubled up the runner holds to her base. The first baseman drops the ball, runs to tag 1st for the out, then throws to 2nd and gets a tag out there.
R1 held her base then F3 tags 1B...Force is off. Why did R1 leave?? She was out of jeopardy of being tagged or forced out.
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Old Tue May 20, 2008, 11:35pm
Al Al is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dholloway1962
R1 held her base then F3 tags 1B...Force is off. Why did R1 leave?? She was out of jeopardy of being tagged or forced out.
Dholloway,

I didn't mean R1 held her base until F3 got the force out at 1st and then she took off for 2nd. What I meant was R1 held her base until she saw the ball came rolling out of F3's glove. (If she stayed on 1st F3 would have tagged her out first and then stepped on 1st base for a double play). The double play that actually accured was made possible because the BR was not running full speed (until she saw the ball dropped), which gave the fielder time to get the force out at 1st. She then made a great throw to 2nd and R1 was tagged out. There was one guy yelling, (make the call blue, make the call), but no call was made. IMO, the defense got away with one. ...Al

Last edited by Al; Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12am.
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