NCAA 3 Person Mechanics

[Scooby]

In a situation with no one one and the U1 goes out on a fly ball or line drive. By the book the touch at first by the batter-runner U3's call. Is it common for the plate umpire to take this call?

Also, if the right fielder makes a throw to first and the plate umpire takes the touch, he would also take this call. Correct?

[DaveASA/FED]

NCAA might be different but I doubt it, I am sure someone will chime in if I am wrong.

ASA and FED you are right U3 has the BR when U1 goes out. You are back to 2 person mechanics. BUT you are also correct that sometimes the crew will deviate and communicate (required if you are doing something NOT by the book) and the PU will take the call at 1st base. (S)He has the best angle on that play and with just a little more effort (suppose to be trailing about 1/2 way up the line anyway) can be even closer to the play than U3.

[Skahtboi]

Using NCAA mechanics, if U1 chases, then the touch of the runner at first with no one on is the responsibility of the PU. He is also responsible for the throw back to first. U3 should be at second for any potential play there.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

ASA and FED you are right U3 has the BR when U1 goes out. You are back to 2 person mechanics. BUT you are also correct that sometimes the crew will deviate and communicate (required if you are doing something NOT by the book) and the PU will take the call at 1st base. (S)He has the best angle on that play and with just a little more effort (suppose to be trailing about 1/2 way up the line anyway) can be even closer to the play than U3.

I'm not familiar with FED Mechanics, but in ASA the PU has BR to 1B don't they?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

I'm not familiar with FED Mechanics, but in ASA the PU has BR to 1B don't they?

No. In ASA, if U1 chases, the U3 becomes THE BU. That makes him/her the primary at 1B. You need to communicate that change, if PU comes up to make the (obviously clearer) call.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

No. In ASA, if U1 chases, the U3 becomes THE BU. That makes him/her the primary at 1B. You need to communicate that change, if PU comes up to make the (obviously clearer) call.

You might want to re-read the manual. I'm reading it as PU has the play. Can anyone clarify.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

You might want to re-read the manual. I'm reading it as PU has the play. Can anyone clarify.

You are right about one thing; someone may need to reread the manual.

Fly ball coverage with no runners on base. PU is to "Trail batter/runner toward first. If first bse umpire goes out, ASSIST IN WATCHING batter/runner touch first base." U1 is to "If third base umpire goes out on fly ball, come inside the diamond, buttonhook, and take runner to third base." U3 is to "If first base umpire goes out on fly ball, come inside the diamond and take the runner to third base."

So, which part says PU has a play at first? If you read that, then, PU must, by your reading, also have the play at first when U3 goes out, over U1, since the exact same terminology is used. Do you agree that U1 has the call at first when U3 goes out, and that PU simply "assists"? Then, by the same wording, U3 has the play at first when U1 goes out, and PU simply assists.

If you can't follow that, then no one can clarify it for you.

[CelticNHBlue]

ASA states specifically that this is the call of U3 anytime (bold mine) U1 chases for consistency sake. They also don't want you to pre-game deviate this mechanic for the same reason. However, it is also commonplace for PU to take this responsibility so long as they commuicate every time that they are taking the call.

The mechanic for NCAA requires PU to take the touch and call at 1B, U3 goes straight to 2B.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You are right about one thing; someone may need to reread the manual.

Fly ball coverage with no runners on base. PU is to "Trail batter/runner toward first. If first bse umpire goes out, ASSIST IN WATCHING batter/runner touch first base." U1 is to "If third base umpire goes out on fly ball, come inside the diamond, buttonhook, and take runner to third base." U3 is to "If first base umpire goes out on fly ball, come inside the diamond and take the runner to third base."

So, which part says PU has a play at first? If you read that, then, PU must, by your reading, also have the play at first when U3 goes out, over U1, since the exact same terminology is used. Do you agree that U1 has the call at first when U3 goes out, and that PU simply "assists"? Then, by the same wording, U3 has the play at first when U1 goes out, and PU simply assists.

If you can't follow that, then no one can clarify it for you.

First..sorry about the way the read the book sounded...didn't mean it the way it "came out".

The ASA National Umpire School I went to this year they said PU has the play at 1B. Every ASA National I have done they say PU has play at 1B.

Add to that, page 182-183 of the manual under Leaving the Plate Area and Trailing the Batter-Runner states This will enable you (meaning PU) to either make or assist the base umpire in administration of
7. The base umpire going to the outfield. You are already in position to make any calls on the bases that may develop.

Also, althought I don't know if this is from ASA or not, but on Cactus Umpires (ASA) there is a document http://www.cactusumpires.com/pdf/3-umpire-handout.pdf it states on page 3 section 3

When an umpire chases, we are working
with two umpires. Usually, but not always,
we revert to the two umpire system.
For instance, when 1U chases with no one
on, P covers 1st and 3U rotates into 2nd.
When the BR advances to 2nd, P goes back
to the plate and 3U takes the runner to 3rd
if needed.

So that is why I am having confusion on the matter.

[socalumps]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

First..sorry about the way the read the book sounded...didn't mean it the way it "came out".

The ASA National Umpire School I went to this year they said PU has the play at 1B. Every ASA National I have done they say PU has play at 1B.

Add to that, page 182-183 of the manual under Leaving the Plate Area and Trailing the Batter-Runner states This will enable you (meaning PU) to either make or assist the base umpire in administration of
7. The base umpire going to the outfield. You are already in position to make any calls on the bases that may develop.

Also, althought I don't know if this is from ASA or not, but on Cactus Umpires (ASA) there is a document http://www.cactusumpires.com/pdf/3-umpire-handout.pdf it states on page 3 section 3

When an umpire chases, we are working
with two umpires. Usually, but not always,
we revert to the two umpire system.
For instance, when 1U chases with no one
on, P covers 1st and 3U rotates into 2nd.
When the BR advances to 2nd, P goes back
to the plate and 3U takes the runner to 3rd
if needed.

So that is why I am having confusion on the matter.

Cactusumpires is not an ASA site...it has information about and relating to several affiliations. The example you used is the NCAA mechanic...from the NCAA Umpire Manual. One of the best umpire resourcing sites you will find anywhere.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

First..sorry about the way the read the book sounded...didn't mean it the way it "came out".

The ASA National Umpire School I went to this year they said PU has the play at 1B. Every ASA National I have done they say PU has play at 1B.

Okay; I understand that your first response didn't mean what it sounded like. Apology accepted.

Can't speak for which staff members taught your NUS, nor which UIC'd your Nationals. And, I personally believe that the PU obviously has a better look at this play, particularly if it is the linedrive and one hop pickup and throw to first for a banger. U3 doesn't have a chance.

All that said, I promise you that the official word from the very top is that when U1 goes out, U3 becomes THE ONE AND ONLY BU, that must make all calls that BU would make in the 2 umpire system. PU must "call" the BU off to follow protocol, since we don't agree to change standard mechanics in a pregame.

[Scooby]

The way that I understand ASA, AtlSteve hit the nail on the head. It is better to have PU take the call, but that is not "by the book" and you cannot change the book before you hit the field, you make changes as they become necessary in the game, even though you make this change most every time that it happens.

By the way I had this play today in an NCAA game. I was PU and said "two man" as U1 went out but did not call U3 off. He asked me, as we were going back to our positions, if I was going to take the touch all day.

[bkbjones]

In any ASA I have done, if U1 or U3 go out, we revert to standard 2-man mechanics.

Scooby, for some reason I think maybe your partner hasn't read the NCAA Umpire Manual. Maybe that partner was too cheap to spend the $10?

[Scooby]

Originally Posted by Scooby

The way that I understand ASA, AtlSteve hit the nail on the head. It is better to have PU take the call, but that is not "by the book" and you cannot change the book before you hit the field, you make changes as they become necessary in the game, even though you make this change most every time that it happens.

By the way I had this play today in an NCAA game. I was PU and said "two man" as U1 went out but did not call U3 off. He asked me, as we were going back to our positions, if I was going to take the touch all day.

Not to throw him under the bus, because he is a good umpire. Much more experienced than me. Works in several DI conferences.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

Scooby, for some reason I think maybe your partner hasn't read the NCAA Umpire Manual. Maybe that partner was too cheap to spend the $10?

Wow! That's half the price that I paid for mine!!!!