BR Fails to Advance

[Dakota]

The following are quotes from the NFHS and ASA (2007) rule books for similar rules having to do with a BR failing to advance to 1B and entering the team area. I have emphasized the parts of those rules that I believe are wrong in the way they combine. By "wrong" I mean they are not consistent with the remainder of the playing rules for similar actions and that they can, in fact, result in placing the defense at a disadvantage due to the actions of the offense, similar in effect to the defense unfairly stopping play by intentionally throwing a ball out of play. The book recognizes this action by the defense as unfair and deals with it. Here, however, it codifies the action by the offense.

NFHS Rule 8
SECTION 2 BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT
ART. 4 . . . The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (F.P.), a dropped third strike (F.P.), or catcher obstruction.
EXCEPTION: (S.P.) The ball is dead on a base on balls, or on a hit batter (F.P.) the ball is dead, the batter-runner is not out and runners cannot advance unless forced.
PENALTY: (Art. 4) The ball is dead and the runner(s) must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the infraction.

ASA Rule 8
Section 2. BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT.
D. When the batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (Fast Pitch), a dropped third strike, or catcher obstruction.
EXCEPTION: (Slow Pitch) The ball is dead when runners are not required to run bases on a home run or four base award, or on a base on balls, or (Fast Pitch) on a hit batter. The batter-runner is not out. Other than on a home run or four base award, runners cannot advance unless forced.
EFFECT - Section 2 D-H: The ball is dead and runner(s) must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the interference.

Further disturbing is an indication from WMB on the Fed board that he has received communication from people of influence that this issue will be addressed (by both ASA and NFHS?) by making it clear that it is intentional and expected that the dead ball be the result of the BR failing to advance, etc.

This means that the BR can choose to stop all play, including play on a batted ball, by merely entering the dugout. This takes away the opportunity of the defense to retire runners on base, including fielder's choice, double play, triple play, live ball appeal for leaving early on a caught fly, etc.

I had considered the "dead ball" aspect of this rule to be an editorial error that crept in when Rule 8 was revised some time back. I cannot see ANY reasonable rationale for the result of the BR failing to advance being a dead ball and runners return.

Someone with influence in the NFHS and ASA rules process please try to get this addressed PROPERLY! (Obviously, "properly" is my opinion...)

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

The following are quotes from the NFHS and ASA (2007) rule books for similar rules having to do with a BR failing to advance to 1B and entering the team area. I have emphasized the parts of those rules that I believe are wrong in the way they combine. By "wrong" I mean they are not consistent with the remainder of the playing rules for similar actions and that they can, in fact, result in placing the defense at a disadvantage due to the actions of the offense, similar in effect to the defense unfairly stopping play by intentionally throwing a ball out of play. The book recognizes this action by the defense as unfair and deals with it. Here, however, it codifies the action by the offense.Further disturbing is an indication from WMB on the Fed board that he has received communication from people of influence that this issue will be addressed (by both ASA and NFHS?) by making it clear that it is intentional and expected that the dead ball be the result of the BR failing to advance, etc.

This means that the BR can choose to stop all play, including play on a batted ball, by merely entering the dugout. This takes away the opportunity of the defense to retire runners on base, including fielder's choice, double play, triple play, live ball appeal for leaving early on a caught fly, etc.

I had considered the "dead ball" aspect of this rule to be an editorial error that crept in when Rule 8 was revised some time back. I cannot see ANY reasonable rationale for the result of the BR failing to advance being a dead ball and runners return.

Someone with influence in the NFHS and ASA rules process please try to get this addressed PROPERLY! (Obviously, "properly" is my opinion...)

Good opinion, I can see your point.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

This means that the BR can choose to stop all play, including play on a batted ball, by merely entering the dugout. This takes away the opportunity of the defense to retire runners on base, including fielder's choice, double play, triple play, live ball appeal for leaving early on a caught fly, etc.

I had considered the "dead ball" aspect of this rule to be an editorial error that crept in when Rule 8 was revised some time back. I cannot see ANY reasonable rationale for the result of the BR failing to advance being a dead ball and runners return.

Someone with influence in the NFHS and ASA rules process please try to get this addressed PROPERLY! (Obviously, "properly" is my opinion...)

As I said in the NFHS forum, could the abandonment of baserunning be treated like passing another runner (BR or R out, live ball)?

(Obviously, "properly" is my opinion..., also.)

[greymule]

Why do both rules include "a hit batter (F.P.)" and then proceed to exclude the same thing? I must be missing something.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

This takes away the opportunity of the defense to retire runners on base, including fielder's choice, double play, triple play, live ball appeal for leaving early on a caught fly, etc.

There can't be that many batter/runners that hit into what might be routine double and triple plays and then run for the dugout instead of 1B. If so, wouldn't the outs made prior to (me noticing ) them entering the dugout still stand?

As for the live ball appeal for leaving early on a caught fly... the person entering the dugout is not the batter runner, but a retired player. Her batted ball was caught.

[LMSANS]

Originally Posted by greymule

Why do both rules include "a hit batter (F.P.)" and then proceed to exclude the same thing? I must be missing something.

I believe the exclusion is for SP only.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

As for the live ball appeal for leaving early on a caught fly... the person entering the dugout is not the batter runner, but a retired player. Her batted ball was caught.

Most of the fields around here don't have much room between the foul line and DBT. It would not be a problem for a BR to dash into DBT while an outfielder is camped under a high fly ball.

The very idea that the BR can kill the play at will and stop the defense from executing plays by running into DBT is just wrong, regardless of how often it comes up.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by LMSANS

I believe the exclusion is for SP only.

I thought F.P. meant fast pitch?

[greymule]

The syntax of the "exception" is faulty. It should say, "The ball is dead and the batter-runner is not out (1) in slow pitch, when runners are not required to run bases on a home run or four-base award, or on a base on balls, or (2) in fast pitch, on a hit batter.

Still, 8-2-D oddly states that the BR is out for failing to advance to 1B and entering the team area on a FP hit batter, and then immediately makes an exception for it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Most of the fields around here don't have much room between the foul line and DBT. It would not be a problem for a BR to dash into DBT while an outfielder is camped under a high fly ball.

The very idea that the BR can kill the play at will and stop the defense from executing plays by running into DBT is just wrong, regardless of how often it comes up.

If umpires are watching a BR head to the dugout instead of watching the ball, someone may need a clinic or two.

[Dakota]

How's this situation grab everyone?

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, no outs, bottom of 7, tie score. BR attempts a sac bunt into the infield on the 1B side. F1 fields the bunt, throws to F2 to stop R1 who is charging home. R1 gets into a run-down between 3B and home and appears to be a dead duck. BR runs into the dugout, preserving the runner on 3B. Dead ball, BR out, R1 back on 3B.

Sounds fair to me.

If you're worried about who the umpire is watching, make it a 3 man crew.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

How's this situation grab everyone?

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, no outs, bottom of 7, tie score. BR attempts a sac bunt into the infield on the 1B side. F1 fields the bunt, throws to F2 to stop R1 who is charging home. R1 gets into a run-down between 3B and home and appears to be a dead duck. BR runs into the dugout, preserving the runner on 3B. Dead ball, BR out, R1 back on 3B.

Sounds fair to me.

If you're worried about who the umpire is watching, make it a 3 man crew.

Sounds kind of like the sitch that I mentioned over at the NFHS site.

Under the wording, and a very saavy coach and team, this scenario is entirely possible.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Sounds kind of like the sitch that I mentioned over at the NFHS site.

Under the wording, and a very saavy coach and team, this scenario is entirely possible.

True, but with a rundown between 3rd and home, which of us are going to see what happened to the BR?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

True, but with a rundown between 3rd and home, which of us are going to see what happened to the BR?

Like I said, make it a 3 man crew. Better yet, make it the big school state championship final, with 1B umpire yelling out DEAD BALL just before R1 is tagged, and have the next batter up successfully execute the sac bunt. I'd bet this rule would get some attention then.

[greymule]

There are a few other situations, at least in ASA, in which a runner can benefit his team by deliberately committing interference or by running into the dugout.