IP and LBR

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Generally speaking (not in terms of the OP's scenario):

What I am wondering is where some of you are getting "pitch or illegal pitch".

One of the purposes of IP is to prevent deception giving the defense an advantage. That includes runners and batters being disadvantaged by the pitcher.

LBR is not INT. It is a completely separate rule. I think some rules are being mixed here. I dont think LBR negates IP in all instances.

6.10.c or LBR doesnt say "pitch or illegal pitch"

First, it was not a LBR violation. The applicable rule is 8-7-S, not 8-7-T.

Second, you are assuming the IP "drew" the runner off the base with the double touch - facts not in evidence, and (without your hesitation, etc.) unlikely, IMO. I do agree that if it is judged that the runner left early because of being deceived by the illegal pitch motion, fine. Lacking that, however, the runner is out.

The IP call is a DDB and will be rendered moot because the leaving early violation is a dead ball and a "No pitch" - you can't have an illegal no pitch.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

First, it was not a LBR violation. The applicable rule is 8-7-S, not 8-7-T.

Second, you are assuming the IP "drew" the runner off the base with the double touch - facts not in evidence,

That is incorrect Dakota, I specifically stated that I was not addressing the OP's scenario.

and (without your hesitation, etc.) unlikely, IMO. I do agree that if it is judged that the runner left early because of being deceived by the illegal pitch motion, fine. Lacking that, however, the runner is out.

Then we agree, and that is my point.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I'll put it this way, you gotta use common sensejudgment.

In general, if the IP deceived the runner into committing LBRleaving early (in your judgment), then you would enforce the IP. If the runner just left early, you would enforce the LBR8-7-S.

I agree (as adjusted)!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

If you have a violation by the defense (IP), how can that be negated by a violation by the offense (LBR)?

Seems to me you'd have somewhat of a timing thing...one happened before the other. Once you declare an illegal pitch, can you now take it back just because the runner stepped off? The batter wasn't given an opportunity to hit the ball....

The batter doesn't need to have the opportunity to hit the ball to enforce an LBR.

Personally, I don't see why both violations cannot/can not/can't be enforced in the order which they occurred. However, then you get into the "how can you have an IP when, by rule, there was "no pitch" argument.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In the play at hand, WMB is correct that the LBR effects a "no pitch". However, I think there could be an extenuating circumstance that could have caused the IP to be called and negate the LBR.

In spite of Dakota's "facts not in evidence" issue, there is something that is not in evidence, but doesn't mean it did not happen.

What would you do if the pitcher saw the DDB signal and completely stopped or stepped back off the PP? Would the PU not kill the play since no pitch is imminent? If this happened, a runner may not be ruled out via LBR depending on the timing of the action.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In spite of Dakota's "facts not in evidence" issue, there is something that is not in evidence, but doesn't mean it did not happen.

What would you do if the pitcher saw the DDB signal and completely stopped or stepped back off the PP? Would the PU not kill the play since no pitch is imminent? If this happened, a runner may not be ruled out via LBR depending on the timing of the action.

That idea was what was behind my questioning of what "called the IP" meant. If the PU killed the play, then there is no leaving early violation, since the ball is dead.

As I said earlier, IMO, if the judgment is that the IP "drew" the runner off the base, then enforce the IP and not the leaving early.

Apart from that, though, an ordinary IP (say, for example, leaping) would be rendered moot by the runner leaving early.

[IRISHMAFIA]

From ASA Umpire web page (Clarifications)

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.
Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

Call them both!

[greymule]

Call them both!

That makes sense, unless the IP is of the type that causes the runner to leave early (like releasing on a second full revolution, or hanging onto the ball at the point where she would normally have delivered).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From ASA Umpire web page (Clarifications)

In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.
Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

Call them both!

I sure hope Kevin was thinking a one umpire system when he wrote this play result. I don't think anyone wants the plate umpire making the call on a runner leaving too soon whenever there is a base umpire.

[Al]

Originally Posted by SRW

ASA Rules

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 2 outs. 0-0 count, B5 at bat. F1 brings her hands together twice while in contact with the PP. PU calls an IP, and prior to releasing the ball, R2 leaves the base early. BU calls Dead Ball.

Ruling?

Hi SRW,

The way I see it the inning is over because during a DDB the ball is still live so if an umpire sees an infraction, as the base umpire did in this case, he or she makes the call. In this case the call is an IDB and the 3rd out. ..Al

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From ASA Umpire web page (Clarifications)

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.
Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

Call them both!

wow.....

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From ASA Umpire web page (Clarifications)

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.
Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

Call them both!

I can live with that. Thanks.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I can live with that. Thanks.

its definately problem solved..

[gogobal]

Originally Posted by SRW

ASA Rules

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 2 outs. 0-0 count, B5 at bat. F1 brings her hands together twice while in contact with the PP. PU calls an IP, and prior to releasing the ball, R2 leaves the base early. BU calls Dead Ball.

Ruling?

Sounds like an Illegal Pitch

[12yearblue]

I've got an ilegal pitch, it happens before the runners would have started. So they would have left the base after the ilegal pitch should have been called.