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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 09:25am
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Partner makes incomplete call.....

This weekend I was working a nice High School tournament and in one game in particular I am working the plate and on bases is a guy I don't know for more than 5 minutes.
So 2 innings into the game we have a runner on second, no outs and the batter hits a shot to right field, I pickup the runner rounding 3rd and she retreats back to 3rd. I look across and see delayed dead ball and R2 walking to 2nd, she touches 2nd and looks at base ump with his arm extended and proceeds to step off the base and takes a few steps towards the dugout. BOOM his arm goes up she's out (I'm thinking LBR, as the pitcher has the ball in the circle) BUT.... where was the dead ball call.... the award of the base and then play ball? coach doesn't come out to argue (yes I said it!! no arguing). The base umpire doesn't ask for any help from me (no reason to) .... so poorly written play scenario or not. My question is: Should I have called time and discussed this with him?
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 09:35am
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Well, I certainly would have discussed it with him either between innings or after the game. A simple, "hey... what happened on that play?" would have sufficed.
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I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 10:03am
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yes, i did that.... he said she was called out for LBR... then i felt "guilty" for allowing the wrong call/mechanics to happen.
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 10:20am
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Why a dead ball call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue
This weekend I was working a nice High School tournament and in one game in particular I am working the plate and on bases is a guy I don't know for more than 5 minutes.
So 2 innings into the game we have a runner on second, no outs and the batter hits a shot to right field, I pickup the runner rounding 3rd and she retreats back to 3rd. I look across and see delayed dead ball and R2 walking to 2nd, she touches 2nd and looks at base ump with his arm extended and proceeds to step off the base and takes a few steps towards the dugout. BOOM his arm goes up she's out (I'm thinking LBR, as the pitcher has the ball in the circle) BUT.... where was the dead ball call.... the award of the base and then play ball? coach doesn't come out to argue (yes I said it!! no arguing). The base umpire doesn't ask for any help from me (no reason to) .... so poorly written play scenario or not. My question is: Should I have called time and discussed this with him?
No need for a dead ball call if the runner obtained the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction. I don't have my Fed rulebooks with me, but I believe the mechanics are the same for ASA. You don't call dead ball if the runner made it safely to second. Did the ball beat the runner to 2nd and was there a tag? If that is the case, then yes there should have been a dead ball call.
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 10:40am
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There's an old saying "don't go looking for trouble on the field because trouble will find you". As long as the coaches were ok with what happened let his call stand.
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue
yes, i did that.... he said she was called out for LBR... then i felt "guilty" for allowing the wrong call/mechanics to happen.
OK, now how was that wrong?
Apparently your partner had obstruction and the runner safely got the base she would have gotten without the obstruction - so there is no dead ball call. And then the runner was out on a LBR violation.
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 01:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M
OK, now how was that wrong?
Apparently your partner had obstruction and the runner safely got the base she would have gotten without the obstruction - so there is no dead ball call. And then the runner was out on a LBR violation.
What i saw was the runner obtaining her "awarded" base then look at the umpire with his arm still up and she took it as a out. and then proceeded toward the dugout.... Now I am a firm believer on NOT coaching the kids, but if the umpires mechanics might have misled her and training by the coaches NOT to argue or give the appearance of arguing a call ....maybe we have a problem.
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 01:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest
No need for a dead ball call if the runner obtained the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction. I don't have my Fed rulebooks with me, but I believe the mechanics are the same for ASA. You don't call dead ball if the runner made it safely to second. Did the ball beat the runner to 2nd and was there a tag? If that is the case, then yes there should have been a dead ball call.
Wait a minute. I thought most of us here believed that umpires should signal and announce obstruction awards, even after a runner advanced to the awarded base.

How are you going to do that, if the ball is still live. Are you not going to change your delayed dead ball to a real dead ball at the end of playing action? In 2007 the NFHS stated that "Umpires are potentially seeing obstruction occur, but are not making the call if the base runner has obtained the base that she would have acquired without the obstruction."

"This practice by umpires must be stopped for several reasons - the defense needs to know it has committed a violatin and the offense needs to know that the violation was seen by the umpire, even if no furhter penalty is to be enforced."

Back to the OP - R2 (B-R?) walks into 2B, BU still holds arm out. (If he is a good BU, he is inside and arm is pointing towards 3B.) Then R2 walks off the base and is called out for LBR? Come on! The arm should have been dropped when R2 reached 2B; if the ball is in the circle then play has ended and the umpire can call DB and announce the award.

It appears to me that his poor mechanics enticeds the runner to step off the base, and then he calls her out! Sure, the player bears responsibility for her actions, but doesn't anyone see that maybe the umpire's mistake contributed to the problem?

Is this not like a situation where a runner is very safe on a tag play, but you have a brain fart and call her out. When she jumps up to voice her displeasure with your call, she is tagged again by F4 who still has the ball. And you say, "My mistake, I should have said safe, but you are out now because you are off the base."


WMB
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 07:26pm
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Therein lies the problem with the way OBS is to be called by umpires. The rule itself is good but the mechanic has an issue. When an umpire calls OBS the runner is protected based on the judgement of the umpire. How in the heck is anyone supposed to know how far the umpire is protecting? Different umpires award different bases based on what they see. There has to be a way of letting coaches/runners know how far a runner is protected instead of guessing.
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 07:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dholloway1962
Therein lies the problem with the way OBS is to be called by umpires. The rule itself is good but the mechanic has an issue. When an umpire calls OBS the runner is protected based on the judgement of the umpire. How in the heck is anyone supposed to know how far the umpire is protecting? Different umpires award different bases based on what they see. There has to be a way of letting coaches/runners know how far a runner is protected instead of guessing.
Absolutely not. That would just create more problems and complaint.

Coaches and players should play the game as it unfolds in front of them, not based on what they may or may not see or hear from an umpire. Coaches should coach the play, not the call.
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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 09:08pm
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Fresno Force 14U tourney.. they truck in umps from all over CA just to get the best umps for a VERY well run tourney.. no scrub umps.

(I think I posted when this happened and I'm a little shady now on the details...but I'll do my best, the point is the same)

So I'm working with Mr NCAA who lauded me with his NCAA accomplishments before the game..

I'm BU in C

Pop up on foul side of 3b line, F2 chasing, with a clear case of coaches interference, which definitely caused f2 to miss the ball. I hear the PU say something about "coaches obstruction".

So OK.. foul ball, F2 didnt make the play and I figure what the heck, hes calling it the wrong thing, but hes on top of it in general and stood there watching.

So he comes up, warns the coach for his obstruction, calls it a foul ball and back to playing we go.

I'm pretty well confounded.. but say nothing...

Tourney UIC was watching and approaches me after the game asking me what I saw. I told him it was clearly Interference by the coach. he agreed and asked me why I didnt do anything about it.. I told him I didnt want to show up my partner on the field, so I said nothing..


Sometimes you just eat the call for the sake of your on the field partnership, especially if "everyone is happy".

I cant see rushing in and attempting to change a call.. that could very well create a bigger problem than the bad call.

Of course, its your duty to raz him about his crappy call for the rest of the tourney.. which I did.
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Last edited by wadeintothem; Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:11pm.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 06:19pm
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In the OP, and its follow up, it reads that the runner walked to 2B then came off the bag and was called out for a LBR violation, as F1 had the ball in the circle. Some of the other posts here state that that was a correct call.

How could the runner be out for a LBR violation by coming off the bag if the runner did not stop or reverse direction? Coming off the bag does not constitute a LBR violation at the end of a play, even if an F1 has the ball in the circle, does it? What if the runner continued to the next base? How is any of that a LBR violation? (until runner stops or retreats)

I see this same as a BR hitting a two-base hit, ball is returned to F1 in circle as BR walks the last couple of steps to 2B and does not stop, but keeps walking toward 3B. That's not a LBR violation either, is it?
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 06:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman15
In the OP, and its follow up, it reads that the runner walked to 2B then came off the bag and was called out for a LBR violation, as F1 had the ball in the circle. Some of the other posts here state that that was a correct call.

How could the runner be out for a LBR violation by coming off the bag if the runner did not stop or reverse direction? Coming off the bag does not constitute a LBR violation at the end of a play, even if an F1 has the ball in the circle, does it? What if the runner continued to the next base? How is any of that a LBR violation? (until runner stops or retreats)

I see this same as a BR hitting a two-base hit, ball is returned to F1 in circle as BR walks the last couple of steps to 2B and does not stop, but keeps walking toward 3B. That's not a LBR violation either, is it?
Thurman,
Go back and read that OP again. The runner stopped on 2B - with the ball in F1's possession in the circle, that runner is locked to 2B. She stepped off, so that's a LBR.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 06:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman15

How could the runner be out for a LBR violation by coming off the bag if the runner did not stop or reverse direction?
How do you know she did not stop or reverse direction? If her team was in the first base dugout, that sounds like a reverse in direction.

I'm think the perception of the OP by many was that the runner did stop on 2B then looked up at the umpire. However, you are just as correct as anyone assuming the opposite since the runner's actions were not detailed.
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Old Thu Feb 28, 2008, 08:38am
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I dictated the actions as i saw them...and to clarify, her dugout was on the first base side. The thing that "concerned" me was that the runner stopped on second...looked at mr. ump... did the "ohhh crap, im out?" look,(because he had his arm in a delayed dead ball signal) and started toward her dugout. personally I wasnt confused about what was going on and neither were her coaches.....but then again we are professional seasoned adults and she is not.
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