Not calling "Foul ball"

[Andy]

My group does not want the obvious foul balls verbalized or signaled. Now the questions becomes.... define "obvious".

If I remember correctly, NCAA umpire training tried to instill this philosophy a few years ago...don't signal or call the obvious foul balls.

What they found was that the definition of "obvious" varied greatly from umpire to umpire. Coaches were complaining that balls that landed a foot outside the foul lines were not being called or signaled. Again, if I remember correctly, the NCAA umpires manual had to put some verbiage in something like..."any ball that lands within approx four feet of a foul line on either side must be signaled if fair and signaled and verbalized if foul."

So it may be to your benefit to have your group provide some guidelines around what is considered an "obvious" foul ball.

Remember...common sense isn't.....

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

My group does not want the obvious foul balls verbalized or signaled. Now the questions becomes.... define "obvious".

If I remember correctly, NCAA umpire training tried to instill this philosophy a few years ago...don't signal or call the obvious foul balls.

What they found was that the definition of "obvious" varied greatly from umpire to umpire. Coaches were complaining that balls that landed a foot outside the foul lines were not being called or signaled. Again, if I remember correctly, the NCAA umpires manual had to put some verbiage in something like..."any ball that lands within approx four feet of a foul line on either side must be signaled if fair and signaled and verbalized if foul."

So it may be to your benefit to have your group provide some guidelines around what is considered an "obvious" foul ball.

Remember...common sense isn't.....

I believe that the NCAA philosophy has trickled down to other associations, where "if it is what we do in college" becomes an assumption of good umpiring. Unfortunately, the trickle down in the attention span of rec coaches and rec umpires doesn't match that thought process.

In NCAA softball, umpires are to take a secondary role to the coaches. The coaches control every aspect of the game, other than judgment and rule applications (although, many or most try to control that, too). Umpires are not to presume to tell players that a ball is foul, or communicate with a player in any way that isn't a required call or signal; because the coaches are the only people allowed to communicate with the players directly. And, if it is obvious, umpires shouldn't presume that the coach is unaware of the obvious. The result is that players often run and slide unnecessarily, but that is what the NCAA coaches want; total control, with subservient umpires.

In most associations, the NCAA umpires are (obviously) the best, the officers, the trainers, or, at least, the role models. This specific example of NCAA mechanics is often NOT what is best at high school or rec levels; the caliber of players, coaches, and umpires does not lend itself to the same philosophy. These players and coaches need for umpires to be more vocal, more demonstrative, and to protect them from themselves, even. "Obvious" obviously changes with the level of play.

As one who does NCAA, I know I now signal and vocalize less often in other levels of softball; but I do communicate whenever I think I should to benefit the players and coaches. I know it makes it harder to remember to NOT do it in NCAA, or when being evaluated, but I try to find a middle ground based on the level of ball I am doing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In most associations, the NCAA umpires are (obviously) the best, the officers, the trainers, or, at least, the role models.

Not to take away any of the accomplishments of those who work NCAA ball, but I have to disagree that is it a given that these umpires are the best, and not just in softball. It isn't the association that makes the umpire, it is the person inside the uniform.

Even though it sometimes feels as if it is, officiating is not our fulltime job. There are many officials which have job and family commitments that prohibit them from working NCAA ball, just as it does working HS ball in some areas. That does not make them any less an umpire. I have some very good umpires in my area. Some work NCAA, some do not. Some who work NCAA place themselves above the rest, and others will move from NCAA to pro to international to co-rec SP to HS FP to JO tournament and back to NCAA within a week. To me, the latter is the role model.

And being a good umpire does not lock you into a place with NCAA ball. A great part of getting decent assignments, if any at all, is an umpire's ability to interact with the coaches along the way. Sometimes, it isn't that easy and right or wrong, some assignors will take their marching orders from the conferences/schools which pay them or someone else may be getting those calls the following year. These folks have one of the hardest jobs to do as it is a very thin line they must walk.

Sorry, didn't mean to get carried away. Steve makes some good points, just wanted to add a little clarification.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In NCAA softball, umpires are to take a secondary role to the coaches. The coaches control every aspect of the game, other than judgment and rule applications (although, many or most try to control that, too). Umpires are not to presume to tell players that a ball is foul, or communicate with a player in any way that isn't a required call or signal; because the coaches are the only people allowed to communicate with the players directly. And, if it is obvious, umpires shouldn't presume that the coach is unaware of the obvious. The result is that players often run and slide unnecessarily, but that is what the NCAA coaches want; total control, with subservient umpires.

Is this the thinking when it comes time to discuss calls the coaches disagree with? That the umpire is subserviant?

[IamMatt]

Here I go again, looking to the book for an answer. Regarding balls and strikes, ASA says, "Every pitch is called a strike or a ball. Umpires don't remain silent when a pitch is ruled a ball."

It is a little less black-and-white with foul balls. Mostly the book discusses determining fair-or-foul on close ones down the foul lines; ASA says, "...on all foul balls, except a caught fly ball, the DEAD BALL signal is given." so I guess that says you should be signalling every foul ball, but not necessarily with the FOUL BALL signal, unless they mean that instruction to only refer to balls hit down the foul line. Glad it is so clear.

As a coach, I like decisive, consistent calls. If I don't hear a call or see a signal, I don't have to guess whether it is because I missed it, or if it was a "silent" call. We coaches aren't that smart, remember, and we need all the help we can get.

[NM FP Ump]

Early on in my experience I was calling a fp game where I was BU and the PU would not verbalize foul balls. Between innings I asked him if he would please verbalize them for me, and his reply was, "I give the signal for foul ball and I will verbalize the borderline foul ball, but on the routine foul balls, I just do a signal." I am a rookie, so I go along with his routine....until later in the game when a high inside pitch is swung at. The catcher puts her glove up and the ball touches her glove and goes to the backstop. Catcher moves to her left to retrieve the ball and PU puts his hands up because he lost balance when the catcher bumped into him. I tell the baserunner going from 2nd to 3rd, "it's a foul ball" and she goes back to 2nd. Well, I got my ear chewed by the OC for a foul ball call on a passed ball. I learned my lesson then and there: Call all foul balls "foul" as a PU, don't call any balls "foul" as a BU.

[3afan]

i never "offer" info to baserunners ... but i'll answer honestly one if asked something & its the time to do so

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Is this the thinking when it comes time to discuss calls the coaches disagree with? That the umpire is subserviant?

It is the attitude of most of the Div I coaches, and several of those from D II and lower. It is the attitude of most of the conference officials, and coordinators, who appear mostly worried about answering the coaches' concerns, never really adressing deplorable behavior by the coaches. Yes, it is our's to handle when it crosses the line, but we are rarely backed on anything but outrageous behavior.

In my personal opinion, far too many (in fact, damn near all) NCAA umpires attempt to ignore the consistent stream of disagreements with ball/strike judgments, fair/foul decisions, safe/out decisions. No one will tell a coach that sitting there disagreeing verbally with every call is unsportsmanlike, or that coming out to argue purely judgment calls that they KNOW from 80 feet away at a bad angle that we missed, that is "horrible", and on, and on.

No one will enforce the NCAA rules that have been newly added to require batters and pitchers to get it going; and, absolutely NO ONE has the balls to refuse to grant "time" to a batter who simply requests it to control the pitcher, despite the direction from the highest levels to NOT GRANT TIME. Rarely will any umpire refuse to award a base to a batter who is hit by a pitch while making no effort to avoid; I know some who will award first base to a batter who has obviously and clearly leaned into a pitch. Because they are afraid the coaches will blacklist them, most simply want to survive their games, and hope the adage of the umpire who isn't noticed will carry them to the promised land.

And now it is sliding down to high school, the speed up rules and don't grant time rulings. Georgia is a fall high school softball state, I have called almost 60 games this year, watched (evaluated) almost 60 more, and have never seen even one umpire other than me refuse to grant a batter time. Not even in my own association, even working with me.

Hell, yeah, we are subservient. More in NCAA than anywhere else, but overall, the umpires have no balls.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It is the attitude of most of the Div I coaches, and several of those from D II and lower. It is the attitude of most of the conference officials, and coordinators, who appear mostly worried about answering the coaches' concerns, never really adressing deplorable behavior by the coaches. Yes, it is our's to handle when it crosses the line, but we are rarely backed on anything but outrageous behavior.

In my personal opinion, far too many (in fact, damn near all) NCAA umpires attempt to ignore the consistent stream of disagreements with ball/strike judgments, fair/foul decisions, safe/out decisions. No one will tell a coach that sitting there disagreeing verbally with every call is unsportsmanlike, or that coming out to argue purely judgment calls that they KNOW from 80 feet away at a bad angle that we missed, that is "horrible", and on, and on.

No one will enforce the NCAA rules that have been newly added to require batters and pitchers to get it going; and, absolutely NO ONE has the balls to refuse to grant "time" to a batter who simply requests it to control the pitcher, despite the direction from the highest levels to NOT GRANT TIME. Rarely will any umpire refuse to award a base to a batter who is hit by a pitch while making no effort to avoid; I know some who will award first base to a batter who has obviously and clearly leaned into a pitch. Because they are afraid the coaches will blacklist them, most simply want to survive their games, and hope the adage of the umpire who isn't noticed will carry them to the promised land.

And now it is sliding down to high school, the speed up rules and don't grant time rulings. Georgia is a fall high school softball state, I have called almost 60 games this year, watched (evaluated) almost 60 more, and have never seen even one umpire other than me refuse to grant a batter time. Not even in my own association, even working with me.

Hell, yeah, we are subservient. More in NCAA than anywhere else, but overall, the umpires have no balls.

I couldn't survive in that world. Thanks for the reply.