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-   -   Foul tip (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/37643-foul-tip.html)

IRISHMAFIA Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:55am
Which answers are correct?


1. B1 swings and contacts the ball that goes directly to F2’s glove.
Edited: for the purpose of this post, assume directly infers "sharply"


Speaking ASA

Quote:
a. That is a foul tip when caught if the ball never rises on its way from the bat to the catcher’s glove.

Incorrect. The comment includes a caveat that excludes a ball which rises from the bat to the catcher's glove as a foul tip.
Quote:

b. That is a foul tip when caught unless the ball rises above the batter’s head.
Incorrect. Again, a caveat that excludes a ball which rises above the batter's head as a foul tip.
Quote:

c. The ball is live if legally caught by F2.
Correct for FP & SP w/stealing. It could not be a foul tip if it wasn't caught. SP w/o stealing, see "d".
Quote:

d. The ball is dead on a foul tip.
Correct only in SP w/o stealing
Quote:

e. Any fielder can legally catch a foul tip.
Obviously, incorrect as only a catcher can catch a foul tip.

Dakota Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest
...Nothing else has to be considered. Not the direction, not the height of the glove in relation to the ball. That's why A and B are incorrect. ....
No, that's why a and b contain superflouous information. The question does not ask "Which give information, all of which you must consider, on a foul tip." If says "Which answers are correct."

A car is speeding if it is exceeding the speed limit and it is red.

Is that a correct statement?

As I said above, this is a classic umpire exam poorly written question. You have to guess what the question really is asking, instead of simply what it did ask.

rwest Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
No, that's why a and b contain superflouous information. The question does not ask "Which give information, all of which you must consider, on a foul tip." If says "Which answers are correct."

A car is speeding if it is exceeding the speed limit and it is red.

Is that a correct statement?

As I said above, this is a classic umpire exam poorly written question. You have to guess what the question really is asking, instead of simply what it did ask.
No, that's not a correct statement. Your statement indicates that speeding requires going over the speed limit AND that the car be red. AND means both must be true for the statement to be true. Simple boolean algebra.

Now the statement's that Irish offered were incorrect because they placed conditions that are not part of the definition of a foul tip.

Consider this answer from Irish's original list....

That is a foul tip when caught if the ball never rises on its way from the bat to the catcher’s glove.

If this is a true statement then it will always be true. What if the ball does rise on its way to the catcher's glove? Is it still a foul tip? Yes. Therefore, A is incorrect.

Dakota Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:40pm
If you expect umpire exams to follow logic, you'll never score 100%. Too may of the questions require you to get inside the test-writer's head and try to guess (yes, guess) which answer would be "counted" wrong (as opposed to actually BEING wrong).

My "speeding" statement is correct as written. It does not say "must be red" only that the speeding car is red. It is still a speeding car, even though it is red. Red cars have no exemption from the speed laws.

rwest Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
If you expect umpire exams to follow logic, you'll never score 100%. Too may of the questions require you to get inside the test-writer's head and try to guess (yes, guess) which answer would be "counted" wrong (as opposed to actually BEING wrong).

My "speeding" statement is correct as written. It does not say "must be red" only that the speeding car is red. It is still a speeding car, even though it is red. Red cars have no exemption from the speed laws.
I agree with you that you have to get inside the test writers head.

However, your statement about your speeding example is wrong. Your statement says....

A car is speeding if it is exceeding the speed limit and it is red.

The "and" is combining two conditions. It is not simple modifying the car by designating its color. I'm a software engineer. If I wrote a program that gave out speeding tickets using your statement, only red cars going over the speed limit would get a ticket. Your statement has two conditions for a speeding vehicle: 1. it is going over the speed limit. 2. it is red.

Both have to be true.

Dakota Mon Aug 20, 2007 01:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest
Both have to be true.
I also am a software engineer. If both are true, the car is speeding (even though the second condition is superfluous). I only asked if the question was correct. Not whether the question contained only necessary information. I also did not ask if the statment contained a list of conditions that must be true to determine if a car was speeding. It was not a boolian construct. It is not an IF-THEN-ELSE programming statement. I was an English-language statement.

Reverse the statement into a question: "If a car is exceeding the speed limit and it is red, is it speeding?"

Yes or no?

JefferMC Mon Aug 20, 2007 01:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcblue13
NSA 2006 Ruleset
1-22
FOUL TIP: A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hands or glove/mitt, and is legally caught by the catcher. A foul tip is a strike. The batter is out if it is the third strike. A foul tip is a dead ball. Exception: The Men's Major and AA divisions, the ball remains alive.
Note:- Any foul tip is a strike
For a minute, I was shaking my head... how can NSA have such a fundamental disagreement with everyone else. Then I realized that was a slow pitch definition. The fastpitch definition reads:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSA 2006 Rules, p77
Sec. 26 FOUL TIP: A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batters head, to the catcher’s hands or glove/mitt, and is legally caught by the catcher. A foul tip is a strike. The batter is out if it is the third strike. A foul tip remains alive. A runner may advance with liability to be put out from one base to another on a foul tip without tagging. The foul tip is treated as if it were a swing and miss. A batted ball that travels directly from the bat not higher than the batter’s head to any part of the catcher’s body or equipment other than the hand(s) or glove/mitt is a foul ball is dead and is not a foul tip. A batted ball that goes higher than the batter’s head is a foul ball. It is not a foul tip. If legally caught, the batter is out.
NOTE: Any foul tip is a strike, and the ball is in play.
Superfluously and redunantly thorough and redunant, aren't they? But what is this about the ball hitting the catcher being dead?

MD Longhorn Mon Aug 20, 2007 02:04pm
Thought E was true.

Ball hit directly to catcher's mitt, bounces up, fumbled a bit by F2, caught by F1... whaddayahave?

Dakota Mon Aug 20, 2007 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder
Thought E was true.

Ball hit directly to catcher's mitt, bounces up, fumbled a bit by F2, caught by F1... whaddayahave?
Foul ball. ASA Definitions - FOUL BALL - G.

MD Longhorn Mon Aug 20, 2007 02:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
Foul ball. ASA Definitions - FOUL BALL - G.
I don't have my book here ... can you quote G for me?

And if it's foul ... is it foul and caught? An out... with runners needing to return if they left before the ball hit the catcher? if so, the smark catcher would, on a routine foul tip, bobble it on purpose right on out to the pitcher and let F1 catch it. A stealing baserunner would be a dead duck. This can't be right.

Dakota Mon Aug 20, 2007 02:19pm
No, not an out. Just a foul ball. It is an odd-duck rule that goes against the general bobbled-ball-caught-by-another-fielder definition of a catch.

Here it is:
Quote:
FOUL BALL: A batted ball that:
G. Goes directly from the bat to any part of the catcher’s body or equipment and is caught by another fielder.

MD Longhorn Mon Aug 20, 2007 03:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
No, not an out. Just a foul ball. It is an odd-duck rule that goes against the general bobbled-ball-caught-by-another-fielder definition of a catch.

Here it is:
But the foul tip rule separates straight-to-glove from straight-to-body/equipment. A ball that goes straight to the catcher's equipment and is caught is not a foul tip either.

IRISHMAFIA Mon Aug 20, 2007 03:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder
But the foul tip rule separates straight-to-glove from straight-to-body/equipment.
Is the catcher's hand/glove not part of the player's body/equipment?

MD Longhorn Mon Aug 20, 2007 04:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Is the catcher's hand/glove not part of the player's body/equipment?
No. Not with regards to the average everyday run of the mill foul-tip. Forget the deflection to another player... and look at the normal case:

A) ball goes from bat, directly to glove, and is caught.
B) ball goes from bat, directly to mask, falls, and is caught.

We treat those differently, don't we --- so why the assumption that the cases are suddenly the same if the person catching the ball is not F2?

IRISHMAFIA Mon Aug 20, 2007 07:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder
No. Not with regards to the average everyday run of the mill foul-tip. Forget the deflection to another player... and look at the normal case:

A) ball goes from bat, directly to glove, and is caught.
B) ball goes from bat, directly to mask, falls, and is caught.

We treat those differently, don't we --- so why the assumption that the cases are suddenly the same if the person catching the ball is not F2?
I don't know where you came up with your assumption. I don't see it. You must be reading something that isn't there. A is a foul tip. B is not a foul tip.


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