Foul tip
 

Which answers are correct?


1. B1 swings and contacts the ball that goes directly to F2’s glove.

a. That is a foul tip when caught if the ball never rises on its way from the bat to the catcher’s glove.
b. That is a foul tip when caught unless the ball rises above the batter’s head.
c. The ball is live if legally caught by F2.
d. The ball is dead on a foul tip.
e. Any fielder can legally catch a foul tip.

Edited: for the purpose of this post, assume directly infers "sharply"

none of the above

a. is close

None of the above. . .its an Out

C would be the only correct answer.

A+B: The height of the ball is not in question.A foul tip must go "sharply and directly"to F2's glove.

D: The ball is live on a caught foul tip.

E: If caught by another fielder,it becomes a caught foul ball.

I saw a LL umpire (female) in the SE regional signal a foul tip on a ball that went from the bat to the ground to the catcher's chest protector to the fence. So that has to be the correct answer!:D

I'll give it a try.

C, speaking ASA fastpitch.

NFHS 2006 Ruleset
2-25-2
Foul Tip. A foul tip is a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. It is a strike. (In fast pitch, the ball remains live, but in slow pitch, the ball becomes dead.)

NSA 2006 Ruleset
1-22
FOUL TIP: A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hands or glove/mitt, and is legally caught by the catcher. A foul tip is a strike. The batter is out if it is the third strike. A foul tip is a dead ball. Exception: The Men's Major and AA divisions, the ball remains alive.
Note:- Any foul tip is a strike

C

And people complain about ASA. How can the ball be alive? It can be LIVE, but the ball was never a living being...

Arrrrrggggggh! Doctor!!!!!!!! More pills please!!!

Speaking ASA: C.

Speaking ASA, a. would be correct, but contains contradictory information - it is a foul tip when caught (period), but since it has been stated the ball went directly to the glove, the ball did not rise.
b. same as for a, although I suppose it is possible the catcher's glove is also above the batter's head.
c. Correct for fastpitch and slowpitch with stealing. Not correct for slowpitch without stealing.
d. Inverse of c.
e. Not correct; must be caught by the catcher to be a foul tip.

Does the extra information (that is not possible for a and irrelevant for b) mean that those answers are "not correct" or that the extra information should be ignored? Also, without stating which division the question applies to, it is not possible to decide whether c or d is correct.

JMO, but if this was a test question, it is poorly worded. The only answer that is absolutely INcorrect is e.

Now THAT is an incorrect statement.

FP
a) literally true, but probably marked false if on a test
b) false, as literally stated, height is irrelevant
c) true
d) false
e) false

I assume after a suitable amout of time for everyone to answer (who is going to answer), you'll elighten me as to which other answer is absolutely incorrect.

a) is correct, but contradicts the stated situation
b) is correct if the catcher's glove is also above the batter's head
c) is correct for fastpitch & slowpitch with stealing
d) is correct for slowpitch without stealing
e) is incorrect

C and D are the only correct answers depending on ruleset used
 

A ball that goes directly from the bat to the catchers glove/hand and is legally caught by the catcher is a foul tip. Nothing else has to be considered. Not the direction, not the height of the glove in relation to the ball. That's why A and B are incorrect. A ball that goes from the bat directly to the hand/glove can do so in a rising trajectory and still be a foul tip if the catcher's glove is above the ball when it makes contact with the bat.

C is correct if we are talking FP and SP with stealing. Otherwise it is incorrect.

D is correct if we are talking SP without stealing. Incorrect if we are talking FP or SP with stealing.

E is incorrect in all rulesets that I'm aware of.

Which answers are correct?


1. B1 swings and contacts the ball that goes directly to F2’s glove.
Edited: for the purpose of this post, assume directly infers "sharply"


Speaking ASA

Quote:

a. That is a foul tip when caught if the ball never rises on its way from the bat to the catcher’s glove.

Incorrect. The comment includes a caveat that excludes a ball which rises from the bat to the catcher's glove as a foul tip. Incorrect. Again, a caveat that excludes a ball which rises above the batter's head as a foul tip.Correct for FP & SP w/stealing. It could not be a foul tip if it wasn't caught. SP w/o stealing, see "d".Correct only in SP w/o stealingObviously, incorrect as only a catcher can catch a foul tip.

No, that's why a and b contain superflouous information. The question does not ask "Which give information, all of which you must consider, on a foul tip." If says "Which answers are correct."

A car is speeding if it is exceeding the speed limit and it is red.

Is that a correct statement?

As I said above, this is a classic umpire exam poorly written question. You have to guess what the question really is asking, instead of simply what it did ask.

No, that's not a correct statement. Your statement indicates that speeding requires going over the speed limit AND that the car be red. AND means both must be true for the statement to be true. Simple boolean algebra.

Now the statement's that Irish offered were incorrect because they placed conditions that are not part of the definition of a foul tip.

Consider this answer from Irish's original list....

That is a foul tip when caught if the ball never rises on its way from the bat to the catcher’s glove.

If this is a true statement then it will always be true. What if the ball does rise on its way to the catcher's glove? Is it still a foul tip? Yes. Therefore, A is incorrect.

If you expect umpire exams to follow logic, you'll never score 100%. Too may of the questions require you to get inside the test-writer's head and try to guess (yes, guess) which answer would be "counted" wrong (as opposed to actually BEING wrong).

My "speeding" statement is correct as written. It does not say "must be red" only that the speeding car is red. It is still a speeding car, even though it is red. Red cars have no exemption from the speed laws.

I agree with you that you have to get inside the test writers head.

However, your statement about your speeding example is wrong. Your statement says....

A car is speeding if it is exceeding the speed limit and it is red.

The "and" is combining two conditions. It is not simple modifying the car by designating its color. I'm a software engineer. If I wrote a program that gave out speeding tickets using your statement, only red cars going over the speed limit would get a ticket. Your statement has two conditions for a speeding vehicle: 1. it is going over the speed limit. 2. it is red.

Both have to be true.

I also am a software engineer. If both are true, the car is speeding (even though the second condition is superfluous). I only asked if the question was correct. Not whether the question contained only necessary information. I also did not ask if the statment contained a list of conditions that must be true to determine if a car was speeding. It was not a boolian construct. It is not an IF-THEN-ELSE programming statement. I was an English-language statement.

Reverse the statement into a question: "If a car is exceeding the speed limit and it is red, is it speeding?"

Yes or no?

For a minute, I was shaking my head... how can NSA have such a fundamental disagreement with everyone else. Then I realized that was a slow pitch definition. The fastpitch definition reads:

Superfluously and redunantly thorough and redunant, aren't they? But what is this about the ball hitting the catcher being dead?

Thought E was true.

Ball hit directly to catcher's mitt, bounces up, fumbled a bit by F2, caught by F1... whaddayahave?

Foul ball. ASA Definitions - FOUL BALL - G.

I don't have my book here ... can you quote G for me?

And if it's foul ... is it foul and caught? An out... with runners needing to return if they left before the ball hit the catcher? if so, the smark catcher would, on a routine foul tip, bobble it on purpose right on out to the pitcher and let F1 catch it. A stealing baserunner would be a dead duck. This can't be right.

No, not an out. Just a foul ball. It is an odd-duck rule that goes against the general bobbled-ball-caught-by-another-fielder definition of a catch.

Here it is:

But the foul tip rule separates straight-to-glove from straight-to-body/equipment. A ball that goes straight to the catcher's equipment and is caught is not a foul tip either.

Is the catcher's hand/glove not part of the player's body/equipment?

No. Not with regards to the average everyday run of the mill foul-tip. Forget the deflection to another player... and look at the normal case:

A) ball goes from bat, directly to glove, and is caught.
B) ball goes from bat, directly to mask, falls, and is caught.

We treat those differently, don't we --- so why the assumption that the cases are suddenly the same if the person catching the ball is not F2?

I don't know where you came up with your assumption. I don't see it. You must be reading something that isn't there. A is a foul tip. B is not a foul tip.

Yes... the answer is in the question (if a car is exceeding the speed limit...is it speeding?) nothing else; such as the color, matters for we are told the car was exceeding the speed limit so the statement is true.

Now, speaking U-Trip why is an infield fly rule explained the way it is? Why not just say if a base runner is on 1st and a base runner is on 2nd with less than two outs, etc. since bases being loaded always includes a runner on 1st and 2nd and there's no rule that says if bases are loaded it voids an infield fly rule? ...Al

Probably for the same reason ASA uses that wording....somewhere along the way some idiot coach argued that to be in infield fly there had to be runners on 1st & 2nd only because the rule didn't specifically state it was an infield fly with runners on 1st, 2nd & 3rd. And what probably got it into the book is some idiot umpire who didn't attend clinics or read the book every year figured that this guy caught onto something that had been overlooked for years and refused to rule it as an infield fly.

Mike --- that's EXACTLY my point. A is a foul tip - because it went straight to the glove first. B is NOT a foul tip - because it DIDN'T go straight to the glove. The glove is not simply a subset of "equipment" when you're talking about a foul tip vs a foul ball.

So back to the definition of foul ball in G - it refers to equipment or body (like example B), and not specifically a glove (like example A). When I said that originally, you said, "isn't the glove part of equipment?" My answer is no - not when you're talking about foul tip vs foul ball - the glove and "equipment" are treated separately.

So Foul Ball definition G does not apply when the ball ricochets off a catcher's glove and is caught by someone else.

That was my point on the test question.

Anyway, regarding the IFR, why not have it stated dirt simple: fewer than 2 outs and a force at 3rd.

That would work for the limited number of people who actually know what a force out is. To too many, that would include a single runner on third who left early on the infield fly.

Sad, but true... :rolleyes: :cool:

I perfectly understood the point you were making in the test question and agree completely. Just as it would be a true statement to say: He that believeth (and is baptized) shall be saved, even though salvation comes by faith alone, apart from baptism. Another example would be: If one applies for and is accepted into UCLA (and takes a room in the dorm) he or she will be a student. The statement is true even though one does not need to take a room in the dormitory to be a student at UCLA.

Your dirt simple IFR makes a lot of sense. I'd like to see it rewritten that way. ...Al

Well, now...that depends on whether you are a pre-, post-, or a-millennialist.:eek:

Disagree, apples and oranges. The glove IS always a piece of equipment. Don't believe me, check out the title of the rule under which a glove is addressed.

Sigh ...

Yes, the glove is equipment.

HOWEVER, the glove is treated completely differently from the rest of a catcher's equipment in the rules regarding foul-tips... which is what we're talking about.

Yes, we were talking about foul tips. YOU are talking about a foul ball.

Here is the original question and answers copied from MyReferee quiz for softball:

1. B1 swings and contacts the ball that goes directly to F2’s glove.

a. That is a foul tip when caught if the ball never rises on its way from the bat to the catcher’s glove.
b. That is a foul tip when caught unless the ball rises above the batter’s head.
c. The ball is live if legally caught by F2.
d. The ball is dead on a foul tip.
e. Any fielder can legally catch a foul tip.

SOLUTIONS
1 — ASA FP and SP with stealing, NFHS FP, NCAA – a, c (ASA FP 1-Foul Tip, 7-4D; NFHS 2-25-2; NCAA 1-53); ASA SP without stealing, NFHS SP – a, d (ASA SP 1-Foul Tip, 7- 4D; NFHS 2-25-2); USSSA FP – a, b, c (4-2); USSSA SP – a, b, d (3-Foul Tip)


For ASA FP & SP w/stealing, "a" is incorrect because of the caveat of the ball never rising and the kicker is using the word "if". Change it to a "ball that never rises" and I have no problem with "a" being a correct answer.

Same with "b". Using the word "unless" creates a requirement of the ball's path for the batted ball to be a foul tip. Such a requirement does not exist.

A few years ago, I had a batted ball go sharply and directly to the catcher’s glove and bounce from the glove, go straight up higher than the batters head, and ultimately caught in the catcher’s glove as the ball came down. The catcher moved very little other than turning her glove upright. I ruled a foul tip since all definitions of the foul tip were met.

I was supported the following year at an ASA National Umpire Clinic, that this was the correct call. I had been following this discussion while remembering this play. The way the question is written, I believe “B” is false. A ball can rise above the batters head after contacting the glove and still be a foul tip.