ASA Mechanic change?

[azbigdawg]

those of you that are not wise enough to work sp..ignore this...those of you that ARE smart enough to work SP...... I need an opinion.

ASA 2 man Mechanics...12" SP.. no runners on..clean base hit......can anyone give me a reason..why the PLATE umpire should not have a throwback to 1B, considering how far towards 2B the base umpire is?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

those of you that are not wise enough to work sp..ignore this...those of you that ARE smart enough to work SP...... I need an opinion.

ASA 2 man Mechanics...12" SP.. no runners on..clean base hit......can anyone give me a reason..why the PLATE umpire should not have a throwback to 1B, considering how far towards 2B the base umpire is?

A couple just off the top of my head:

Such a play is a rarity

If proper mechanics are followed, the BU shouldn't be much, if any farther away than the PU,

Depending on where the ball is hit, PU may have other duties and not be in position to trail BR.

[archangel]

Well then..with a runner on 1st, BR hits a grounder to SS, why not have BU call the 1st out at 2nd, with the PU calling the relay play at 1st??...just doesnt make sense , does it....

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A couple just off the top of my head:

Such a play is a rarity

If proper mechanics are followed, the BU shouldn't be much, if any farther away than the PU,

Depending on where the ball is hit, PU may have other duties and not be in position to trail BR.

Re-read... batter Runner ONLY..... and the BU is to the RIGHT of the 2nd baseman to start.... hes got NO angle when he buttonhooks in, and the PU has THE BEST angle. (If hes in the right spot)

They have put the BU so FAR away from 1st base ( I would imagine for better position on the frequent doubles in SP). WHY would you then require him to get back to first when you have another set of eyes that has a GREAT angle?

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

Re-read... batter Runner ONLY..... and the BU is to the RIGHT of the 2nd baseman to start.... hes got NO angle when he buttonhooks in, and the PU has THE BEST angle. (If hes in the right spot)

They have put the BU so FAR away from 1st base ( I would imagine for better position on the frequent doubles in SP). WHY would you then require him to get back to first when you have another set of eyes that has a GREAT angle?

You are absolutely correct.
The base umpire has the play at second on a clean base hit with no runners and the plate umpire has the play back at first.
This is the proper mechanic when the base umpire is in the more corret starting postion on the first base line rather than the stupid "first base side of the second baseman" in the recently adopted ASA mechanics.

With no one on base and a clean hit by the batter..what other "responsibilities" could a plate umpire have?

[azbigdawg]

I actually LIKE being off the line in SP...there really is no reason to be on the line. I think the absolute best BU position is between the first baseman and second baseman. It was flexible enough to allow you to adjust to the hitters and fielders, and not take you so far away from plays at first. Being on the right shoulder of the second basemen has too many disadvantages.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

Re-read... batter Runner ONLY..... and the BU is to the RIGHT of the 2nd baseman to start.... hes got NO angle when he buttonhooks in, and the PU has THE BEST angle. (If hes in the right spot)

They have put the BU so FAR away from 1st base ( I would imagine for better position on the frequent doubles in SP). WHY would you then require him to get back to first when you have another set of eyes that has a GREAT angle?

Reread mine. I didn't mention any other runners, did I?

The BU should be off F4 LEFT shoulder (1B side), with no one on base.

Again, the PU may have other duties like a batted ball down the 3B line, that does not permit the PU to be trailing the BR. Yes, I know there wouldn't be a throw to 1B from LF, but there is no consistency in the mechanics and you know how ASA feels about that.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Reread mine. I didn't mention any other runners, did I?

The BU should be off F4 LEFT shoulder (1B side), with no one on base.

Again, the PU may have other duties like a batted ball down the 3B line, that does not permit the PU to be trailing the BR. Yes, I know there wouldn't be a throw to 1B from LF, but there is no consistency in the mechanics and you know how ASA feels about that.

By moving the BU to the 1b side of the second baseman with no runners takes away another set of eyes on balls hit down the first base line or to the outfiled near the foul line or pole. Worse, it necessitates a much poorer angle on plays at first base.

Further, it needlessly places the umpire among the the players on the right side of the infield and can also put him/her in a position to obstruct the view of the plate from the outfield.

The almost universal mechanic of BU on the right field line gives the umpires the best looks at the most number of plays with no runners on base. The base umpire, on a hit to the outfield, has the play at second base and the Plate man has the touch of the 1st base and any play back.

The BU can take the runner to third on a gapper, but the PU has plenty of time to get to third on plays less obvious, with the BU getting to home in case of an overthrow at third.

This was a proven mechanic that did not need to be changed.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

Re-read... batter Runner ONLY..... and the BU is to the RIGHT of the 2nd baseman to start.... hes got NO angle when he buttonhooks in, and the PU has THE BEST angle. (If hes in the right spot)

They have put the BU so FAR away from 1st base ( I would imagine for better position on the frequent doubles in SP). WHY would you then require him to get back to first when you have another set of eyes that has a GREAT angle?

You may have read in another thread that I was the ASA Rep at the JO Slowpitch Nationals, and did fill in for one game on the bases. Our Tournament UIC stated in the pretournament clinic that "Per Bernie" the base umpire should ALWAYS start to the right shoulder of F4; one starting position, no matter where runners were or weren't located. The umpires did what they were told, and worked what they named the "J-slot" (UIC's first name starts with J). In fact, many of them almost were right up the middle, looking like a deep USSSA base umpire.

Personally, I worked the ASA Umpire manual mechanic in my one game, the same B slot I work in fastpitch. I felt very comfortable buttonhooking from that location without crossing F4 to pick up my batter-runner, and was easily in a great position to handle any throwback at first base, without needing to rely on PU who may or may not be there to take my call. Being in the B slot made it easier to help with fly balls and the temporary fences, and I never once felt the need to help with fair/foul calls that aren't mine to call, no matter where I am starting.

I wonder if Darrell's situation was caused by being told to work closer to 2B? Without stealing, I can't see the reason to ever work to the right of F4, unless they play 5 infielders, or F4 is in an exagerated shift for a big leftie. I heard several of the umpires talking about disliking having to clear F4 to work inside and pick up the BR, but they did as told, despite not agreeing, nor it being the manual mechanic. And, we all know the closest calls are the back end of the double play, and all the bangers at first base. The premise was to take you to the easier buttonhook location, that being the most predominate situation in slowpitch. That is between F3 and F4, so we should start there.

Mike, is this being changed midstream? Have you heard, or can you find out first hand if Bernie is being misquoted? It wouldn't be the first time that (a midstream change) has happened, although it would seem to be counter to the approach of the current administration, which has stated they wouldn't change anything unless and until they could publish a change.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Mike, is this being changed midstream? Have you heard, or can you find out first hand if Bernie is being misquoted? It wouldn't be the first time that (a midstream change) has happened, although it would seem to be counter to the approach of the current administration, which has stated they wouldn't change anything unless and until they could publish a change.

If it has, it makes absolutely no sense. The priority of a BU in the two-umpire system should be to have access to the call at 1B, not the ease of a button hook.

Placing F4 between an umpire and the target is just asking for trouble. This isn't FP where infielders are always moving. On a play to the left side of the infield with no one on base, F4 is most likely a spectator which means s/he is an unnecessary obstruction.

AFA closeness to F4, I'm a firm believer in being just out of reach of the player. Reasoning: the umpire doesn't become a target for the batter and when a fielder needs to move back, the umpire just needs to pivot and the player is by him/her much like a PU on a pop up behind the plate.

[azbigdawg]

Not trying to be a smartass, mike.....but I wouldnt say its a change if it wasnt....check the mechanics changes and book for 2007.


and your point is correct..it takes you AWAY from your priority, and your likely close play at first on a double play....THATS why I dont like it

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

You are absolutely correct.

Jim says you're right. Tells me all I need to know, and it should for you too.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

Not trying to be a smartass, mike.....but I wouldnt say its a change if it wasnt....check the mechanics changes and book for 2007
and your point is correct..it takes you AWAY from your priority, and your likely close play at first on a double play....THATS why I dont like it

The change on the web site specifically states "with runners on base" and I don't believe that is what we are discussing.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The change on the web site specifically states "with runners on base" and I don't believe that is what we are discussing.

Mike, let me get clarification...Ive been told twice to start and finish there. I will let you know what I hear.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

Mike, let me get clarification...Ive been told twice to start and finish there. I will let you know what I hear.

Well, if you read the book, look at the pictures, they both have the BU starting to the left of 2B with no runners on base. There was no change or clarification which I can find in the book or on the web site.

I think someone has this confused with the change involving runner(s) on base.