Dead Ball Advancement
 

R1 on first with no outs......Batter hits long high fly to deep right and R1 is off and running...Rightfielder makes incredible catch and falls over the fence.

R1 is past second when umpire declares dead ball.

ASA rules.


Umpire yells " Out! Dead Ball, runners advance one base."


Assuming R1 retouches first, what base is he/she entitled to?

3rd......... If the catch was in play....

Your ASA rules, or REAL ASA rules?

Call: "Dead ball" then "Out" then hesitate to see runner's reaction prior to announcing any award. When you are satisfied the runner has finished the base-running task at hand, announce the one base award. (8.6.J)

The question was "what" base is r1 entitled to?

Let's see, according to the rule cited it is one base from the time the ball became dead. OP stated the runner had passed 2B.

1 + 2 = 3

Pretty simple, huh?

Am I missing something here? I'm sleep deprived so maybe I am . . . Wasn't this a caught flyball and the runner was "off and running". Wouldn't 1st base be considered the last base touched since they would have to tag up on the caught fly ball? Or do you award 3rd and they have to go back and re touch or risk being out on appeal?

Did I just answer my own question?

R1 is past second when umpire declares dead ball

Pretty clear to me the last base touched was 2nd.

OK Mike, I'm disputing that. She has to retouch 1st - right? Then she gets 3rd? For some reason that just seems wrong to me.

Mike is 100% correct.

8-5-J: When a live ball is unintentionally carried by a fielder from live ball territory. Effect: The ball is dead and runners are awarded one base from the last base touched at the time the fielder left live ball territory.

Since R1 had already touched 2B BEFORE the fielder left live ball territory, R1 is awarded 3B. However, they must touch 2B, then touch 1B to "tag up" after the ball was caught. Then, they must retouch 2B and advance to their awarded base, which is 3B. If they fail to touch any of those bases in that order, the defense may appeal a missed base. Yes, it seems like a lot of unncessary running, but hey, those are the rules.

For the purpose of rule application, softball, at least ASA, considers any base passed is a base touched. There is no rule which demands a runner return to touch a base missed or left too soon. However, there is a rule which places that runner in jeopardy and available to be ruled out on appeal should they not do so.

You two should be writing the rule supplements. :cool: :)

I hope and pray that you're not referring to me, because I'd probably re-write the whole book! ;)

Can you start today? ;)

Don't tempt me! Though if I do, I'd make Mike the senior editor. I'm just a 15-year rookie, and I still screw up now and then. :)

I agree with you that the rule abandons common sense.

If the fielder remained in play and as the runner was retreating to first base the ball is overthrown out of play, the runner gets third---2 bases.
In this case a one base award puts the runner at the same place.

The difference in the above-mentioned scenario and the OP is simple. One player made a great play, and the other play blew it. ;)

So what are you proposing, jimpiano? Award one base for both rules or two bases?

You could not possibly be at the level you claim and mistake this one.

Read the rule. If you still think you have it right, read the rule again.

Quote for us where it says anything about retouching, or legally touched bases, or anything of the sort. Good luck there, as these words only appear in Jim's ASA Calvinball book.

The rule is simple - the LAST BASE TOUCHED... what they have to do otherwise is irrelevant.

First ... this is the same base awarded in the initial situation. 3rd base on both.

Second, your statement is not true at all if the runner is still past 2nd base when the throw toward first base is released. If he is ... he gets home. The direction he's running is irrelevant.

Basically, jimpiano, a fielder unintentionally carrying a live ball into dead ball territory (such as in the OP you described) is a small "oops." One base from base last touched.

A fielder throwing poorly is a big "oops." Two bases from base last touched when the ball was released. Keep in mind I'm saying this with a little "tongue in cheek."

I don't know ASA's rationale behind every rule, and I frankly have too many things going on with work right now to ponder it. So in the end, I call what they give me for a ruleset. :)

And after checking with my UIC any runner in the situation of the OP will be given second base, assuming the base running requirements are met.

and your UIC is WRONG.....

Let me know who your UIC might be, and I'll be sure and put your UIC in touch with the appropriate Regional UIC, who will be happy to conduct a small a$$ chewing, er, I mean clinic, to correct this error.

Yep, s/he sure is. Hopefully, this is a local UIC, not a state/metro/regional.

Rule Supplement #27 reads in part:

(T)he base award is governed from the last base [B]legally[B] touched at the time the ball became dead.

The runner cannot have legally touched any base beyond first since he is required, by the rules, to tag first base after the catch to legally advance.

Even the award of second base is not legal unless the runner retouches first or the defending teams forgoes an appeal.

No runner can legally advance to any base if he in jeopardy of being called out for missing a previous base.

Rule Supplement #27 reads in part:

(T)he base award is governed from the last base [B]legally[B] touched at the time the ball became dead.

Even the award of second base is not legal unless the runner retouches first or the defending teams forgoes an appeal.

The runner cannot have legally touched any base beyond first since he is required, by the rules, to tag first base after the catch to legally advance.

No runner can legally advance to any base if he in jeopardy of being called out for missing a previous base.

So ... your UIC intentionally ignores the rulebook? Or is he just unaware of the rule? Sad in either case, really.

Leaving first base early does not mean every future touch of a base is illegal. Let me ask you this ... a runner on first appears to be tagging, but leaves a step or so early, and is rounding 2nd heading for third when a relay throw is thrown into the third base dugout ... what base do you award?

That RS is NOT making a distinction between a touched and passed-but-not-touched base. It is talking about a base to which the runner is not legally entitled. Before misinterpreting an RS, try reading the actual rule about a touched base.

Rule Supplement # 27 and Rule 8-6-j talk about the awarding of bases when a player carries the ball, intenionally or not, into real or imaginary dead ball territory.

The decision to award a base or bases, depending upon intent, is based on pretty clear language:....(T)he base award is based on the last base legally touched at the time the ball became dead.

The original post deals only with this rule and rule supplement #27 makes it clear that the last base touched means the last legal base touched.

As others have noted, ASA awards bases from the runner's position at the time of the release of the throw or, in the case of the OP, the time the fielder entered DBT, regardless of any obligation to retouch a base left too soon.

NCAA softball is different; it follows OBR. The award in the OP would be 3B, but once the runner returns to retag 1B, the award is changed to 2B. (There is long and complicated justification for this; ASA simplifies things.) Overthrows are treated similarly: if a runner who has left 1B too soon is between 2B and 3B when the fielder releases a throw that goes into DBT, the award is home, but if the runner returns to retouch 1B, the award is changed to 3B.

Don't know about Fed.

These codes differ on what they consider to be the "last base legally touched," just as they differ on what constitutes the runner "closest to home."

And what rule are you reading this one from?

... sigh...

I don't know why I bother.

I don't know why I bother.


I don't know why you bother, either.
If you cannot understand RS#27 then there is not much use of debating this further.

jimpiano, what award would you make on the following plays?:

1. Abel hits a ball off the RF fence. He misses 1B, touches 2B, and is on his way to 3B when F9 releases the throw toward 3B. Abel slides into 3B safely, and the ball gets away and goes into the dugout.

2. Abel on 1B with no outs. Baker hits a long drive to right center. Everyone in the park watches F8 make a spectacular diving catch at the fence, while you notice not only the catch but also the fact that Abel left 1B a half step too soon. Abel is around 2B and on his way to 3B when F4, who took F8's throw, releases his throw to 3B. Abel slides into 3B safely, and the ball gets away and goes into the dugout.

ME understand RS27??? There's a laugh.

Using the rule I posted, define "legally touched".

Should I read it to you slowly?

Do you get the meaning of the OP?
It is about a fielder going into dead ball territory while making a legal catch.

If you want to start a separate conversation about different circumstances you certainly are free to do so.

Read as slow as you want, but I doubt it is going to do you any good.

The runner in the original post, by rule, is awarded second base.

You are wrong and have been proven so. You are aware we are talking ASA softball, right?

One base from the last base touched when the ball enters DBT. As noted, that would be 2B since in ASA softball, rule 8.3.B specifically states that a base passed is a base touched. Therefore, in accordance with 8.5.J and RS 27, the runner in the OP would be awarded 3B.

BTW, there are also Casebook plays which support this ruling.




Edited for an easier read.

Do you get the meaning of the OP?

Yes. It's not very difficult. And the answer for ASA is 3B.

I posed the other plays because they both involve a principle you say you understand: the proper base award to a runner who has proceeded at least one base past either a missed a base or a base left too soon.

The two situations I posed are hardly difficult. How would you rule on them?

Finally, something we agree on.

jimpiano, you do realize that if you award 2B, you're tipping your hand to the defense that the runner didn't tag up at 1B, right?

I am not tipping anyone of anything.

The last legally touched base was first, regardless of whether the runner retags.

Second base.

By rule.

But if he had tagged up, you'd give him third? This inconsistency is where you're tipping your hand, and a savvy defensive coach will see this.

Mike and Mike (and just about everyone else) are correct in this matter. 3B, the whole way. If the runner doesn't retouch 2B, tag up on 1B, then advance to 3B (after touching 2B again), the defense may appeal.

OK you caught me . . . it's no wonder people are afraid to post stuff, they get attacked personally. I guess I could give you my supervisor's number if you'd like to verify it. So I over analyzed a play . . . be thankful that you have never done that.

I wouldn't waste any more effort on jimpiano, guys.

Assume a hypothetical situation that jimpiano is at an ASA championship play tournament. Also assume the situation in the OP happens, and he awards 2B on his field. Then assume he allows the offensive coach's protest by double fist pumping for the UIC.

He'll lose his protest. He'll argue with the UIC over the rule interpretation. And he won't be working any Sunday games because of it.

All that means is that the rest of us working at said hypothetical championship play tournament will now have a better chance at working Sunday.

So don't worry about it. We know he's wrong, but he won't accept that he's wrong. It'll all pan out in the end.

But if he had tagged up, you'd give him third?

Of course not.

Jimpiano..

give me the name of someone who'e rule interpretations you respect....someone on the national level. I will call and get their ruling on this....Im not sure if you are really this obtuse, or are trying to stir up something. Usually in this forum, (99.999 percent of the time) you are going to have the correct answer to a question within hours, if not MINUTES after you post the question. The people here ARE that good....

You have been given the correct answer to this problem, and you refuse to acknowledge it. So who do you want me to call for a ruling on this play? Name them. Ill call.

Not to worry.

Saturday my assignment is the ASA Championship Tourney in Class D.

Send a runner to Rome then.

The rule book is plain on this one.

Second base is the answer.

I agree. Let's keep the venom down, guys. I like to think of this forum as a relative "safe haven" for umps to get good, solid advice on rule interpretations and situational handling. I saw nothing wrong with your post, Mountaineer, even though it was a little... off in the interpretation. :)

Nobody is perfect, guys. Let's keep the gloves on.

Then if that's how you'd rule, you're really working completely backwards. The award is made based on when the ball became dead. If the runner in the OP HAD tagged up, advances to 2B, and THEN the ball became dead, you should have him going to 3B.

You're reading too much into the "legally touched" part of the rules supplement (no mention of which is even in 8.5.J - it just says "last base touched," not "legally touched"). I think what ASA is referring to is things like kicking dirt onto the bag as you run past it, throwing your batting glove down onto the bag ("Well, I 'touched' it, blue!"), running the bases in reverse order to make a travesty of the game (though I haven't given much thought as to how that could even work in this situation), etc.

It's spelled clearly in the book, and it's spelled clearly on this forum. Dude, it's okay to admit you're wrong. Both Mikes have done it to me on many an occasion, and I'm okay with that. That's why I'm here, and I have to say my game has gone up a LOT since I started coming here. Here, I can get the real answers!

My suggestion: admit you're wrong, do a little more research, and stop beating this dead horse. You'll get the respect of the other members here if you do.

So in other words, you have no class or credibility......

Heck I already KNEW that...I just wanted to give you a chance and see if you were serious about your umpiring...apparently not.....just another troll....

ASK SOMEONE...THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE WRONG......

If you cannot at least ASK...you are not deserving of any respect...

If you don't read RS#27 then you have missed the point of the OP which dealt with the circumstance of a fielder making an out and falling into dead ball territory.

The rule supplement adds the word LEGALLY between the words last and touched. There was a reason that word was added. It defies logic for you to contend that "it is spelled our clearly in the book" when you ignore the rule supplement.

No matter how many times posters change the scenario the central point is RS#27 clarifies the base to award when conditions meet the OP.

This board is valuable for discussing various plays and rules interpretations which leads me to discuss them with my fellow umpires and assigners.

On this one my peers support the interpretation I have outlined.

They are all ASA umpires.

Oh, I cannot help myself. This is pretty good since ASA doesn't have a Championship in a Class D anything for another month.

jimpiano = pwn3d.

Where is that again? What division of play? Mens? Slowpitch?

Aah, you beat me to it. :eek:

No, it doesn't. It is a clear reference to rule 8-3-B, which I even posted for you word for word. It might help if you actually read the rule before trying to apply the RS.

According to rule 8-3-B, is passing a base considered a legal touch or not?

Or you could invest your money in an ASA Case Book and read case play 8-8-32, but if you did that, you might find yourself in a dilemma... do you continue to believe the Calvin Ball interpretations by your fellow fist pumpers or do you actually start calling the game by the rules?

Bottom line, here, is you are wrong in your ruling, your friends are wrong if they agree with your ruling, and you are wrong in your understanding of RS 27. You can insist all you want. You can even hold your breath until you are blue, but that does not change the fact, plain and simple fact, that you are wrong.

The last part of RS27 is out of date: "Defensive players cannot take advantage and intentionally throw or step into a dead ball area in order to prevent a runner who has missed a base or left a base too soon from returning to the base. If it is ruled that the defensive player intentionally threw the ball or stepped into the dead ball area, allow the runner to return to the base."

This is old wording that dates from the time when, in ASA, a runner who, when the ball became dead, was on or beyond the base missed or left too soon could not legally correct his error. With ASA's rule change of a couple of years ago, a runner can return to correct a mistake unless he advances to the next base after the award is made.

As for your OP, jimpiano, "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Guess you better check your schedules, then.

If you are what you claim to be, I fear for the umpiring in your area. You consistently make erroneous rulings here, and then claim to be backed up by peers and your UIC. If everything you say is true, then we have an entire black hole of horrid umpiring out there somewhere. Now you're working the Calvinball Class D final (which apparently is held 3-5 weeks before the ASA one). Surely the fact that EVERYONE else (including a defacto National ASA rules interpreter) is telling you that you are wrong should lead you to believe you might actually be wrong, don't you think?

PS, PWL - before you make claims such as this one, you should probably see what kind of thing is verifyable on line, to make sure you're not caught in such a blatant lie. Time to change your moniker again, LLDan/Dumbdrum.

RS#27 is a clear extension of rule 8-5-j since both refer to a fielder carrying a ball into dead ball territory. That was the subject of the OP

Rule 8-5-j uses the term "last base touched" in awarding the base(s) for the ball going into dead ball territory. RS#27 puts the word "legally' between last and base.

If you deny this then you must not have read the rule and the supplement.

Nice response.

Ad hominems say more about you than anything else.

What exactly was ad hominem about what I said. Don't you find yourself the SOLE voice expressing your opinion about a ruling about 90% of the time? Shouldn't that tell you SOMETHING? Sometimes the lone voice is the only one who is right ... but not ALL the time. You are arguing with people who have been in the freaking room when rule changes and interps are discussed. If this was me vs you, I could see you just chalking it up to assuming you are right and I was wrong. It's (as usual) you against EVERYONE here, many of whom have twice as much experience with the inticracies of the rules than the two of us combined.

And regarding the Class D final? You can look stuff like that up ... makes it pretty easy to document that you're making it up as you go.

You, sir, are exceedingly foolish in how you selectively read the book.

The rule book is a totality. Words are used within the rule book with meanings defined by the rule book. Rule 8-3-B defines what ASA means by "legally touched." If you refuse to understand and accept that, they you are just being hardheaded.

http://www.asasoftball.com/tournamen...ent_finals.asp

There you go. Please indicate the Class D tournament being played prior to 8/30/07.

Not "everyone." I have chosen to keep my dog outta this fight. (Sorry to any fans of M. Vick.) :D My momma taught me a long time ago not to cast pearls before swine.

Yeah, me too. But I did ask who has the snorkel.:rolleyes:

Bullspit. Every time you post you tip us off more and more of how utterly stupid you are.

More likely he will be sent home early in the hypothetical situation you describe.
I have seen people sent home on more than one occassion and others told to just stay at the hotel if travel arrangements are already booked.

Hmm, not only is he really out of touch with the rules but he is REALLY out of touch with REALITY and the calender to boot.

You know, jimpiano is not even a good liar in spite of his efforts to intentionally confuse the rules for his own double pumping amusement.

Don't you have to have the EXPRESS WRITTEN PERMISSION of the commissioner of major leage baseball for such things?

Yes,
the double entendre was intentional

Nice to know that even with all these drugs I can still catch those things.

Nicely done on your end. Well, er, not literally your end...no double entendre even thought about until it just came right out of my fingers onto the keyboard...:D

I have seen people sent home on more than one occassion and others told to just stay at the hotel if travel arrangements are already booked.

For calls on the field?

When they were outrageous and out of line with an attitude like our resident troll exemplifies, absotlutely!

I have worked between 35 to 40 Nationals over the years and as a co ordinator at quite a few others. Over all of those years, it has gotten less common to send them home but being sent to the hotel or left in the umpire room seems to be gaining prominence again.

If you can't get with the program and keep an attitude of cooperation with the UIC and other blues, many of the Regional staff and other UICs have no use for you.
I agree with them.

The worst behaviors need to be weeded out, a National is the place to have and show the best, not juvenille and ill prepared umpires.

There was one National that I was at where an umpire was sent home right after the umpire meeting because he was more interested in talking than in listening to the UIC.
For the most part, the umpires thanked the UIC for taking that action.

Class D Tournament
 

Great tournament in Columbus over the weekend, Class D, 32 teams from all over the state. Warren Jones, ASA Ohio, runs a good show.

3 man crews working two to a game, one man off, all day long.

Had the pop up slide at first base on the white bag. Too bad the runner was out so no chance to test out the argument over his possession of the white bag, only.

Notes: Don't much care for the new system that has base umpire on the first base side of second base with no one on. In fact, it takes another set of eyes off the foul line past first on shot down the line or a borderline foul ball hit to right field.

Despite the penalty for a home run the players on our diamond hit about a 2 dozen out over the course of a day. The players felt the ball used should be a lot less lively. One pitcher used a full helmet on the mound.

Stealing was in effect which was something new for the players and most of the umpires. It did lead me to conclude that the double fist pump is a good way to signal dead ball when the ball fails to cross the plate.:D

dont know why I even look....I guess Im just expecting a new level of idiocy...and usually Im rewarded.....

3 words come to mind, man... "Glutton for punishment."

Then again, we're umpires. That category fits us well by definition.

gosh, two days before a national and you say THAT? :D

Hope things go well down there. Wish I was there (longggggg siiiiiighhhhh)

I thought I managed to avoid it totally...didnt wanna be a site UIC..didnt wanna work it..... but it got so damn big I volunteered for some games on wed/thurs.... not HUGE..(66 teams), but big enough to go to 3 sites..... we have a split day, 7,8,11..6,8,10pm..so we had to spread it out...

come down next time....

Holy smokes! :eek:

Jimmy the "P" was right here in my hometown over the weekend!

If only I had known...could have dropped by the park and given you all a first hand account...

There WAS a tournament in Columbus over the weekend. It was ASA Girls 12U, 14U, 16U, and 18U. Unfortunately, not Class D (it was slowpitch though) ... and not Columbus OHIO either... Columbus Georgia. It is possibly PWL was THAT lost that he didn't know what state he was in?!?!?

As intent as you may be to prove that JP is "making stuff up", the ASA website indicates that there was a men's slow pitch class D tournament in Columbus, Ohio this past weekend.

I haven't worked any slow pitch at all this year (and very little in my career) and had no first-hand knowledge of this tournament.

You may want to check on Columbus,Ohio
http://www.ohioasasoftball.org/pages...urnaments.html

This is starting to get interesting . . .

Guys, stop. Just stop. You're making my rule book hurt.

Not really... does it matter where he was doing his piss-poor umpiring? I dont think so....

Not really. It is a local association state tournament, not an ASA Championship as earlier declared.

If you want to dispute the sanctioning of the tournament you can always check with Warren Jones.

Interesting that the "veteran" ASA umpire assigned as our 3rd when on the bases never once turned to watch a ball to the outfield, redardless of the number of runners on base. So despite his offer of assistance on a "tough " catch, he was a non participant.

But he did have the proper ASA out call down pat.And his shoes looked good.

At least he had his ASA priorities.

I shall.

The good news is that I get to work what was a BIG men's FP tournament...and I guess it is still big with no more teams than we have up here any more. Maybe Jimmy Moore and who knows, couple other hall of famers will play. Jimmy might not throw in the 90s anymore, but low 80s against some of these 20-something kiddos is usually sufficient.

It's the Men's Seattle Hardcore Invitaional Tournament, or as we call it out back around a few iced down coolers, Men's ...

Unfortunately, all tournaments are not "ASA CHAMPIONSHIP TOURNAMENTS" as Jim claimed.

Ok, I did. And I let him know you were namedropping him in a lame attempt at legitimacy on this issue.

Perhaps if you respect him and HE tells you you are wrong, maybe you'll listen ... although I'm expecting him to say, "Who the heck are you talking about - I don't know this guy".

Please get back to me on what Warren replies to you.

He didn't reply as much as simply forward my note to a P.Drake, copying me on the forwarding.

"Paul Drake" is listed as the Umpire-in-Chief and At-Large Player Rep for the Ohio ASA.

"Paul Drake" is listed as the Umpire-in-Chief and At-Large Player Rep for the Ohio ASA.

Paul does that in addition to his duties as Perry Mason's private detective.

In other words, you got caught with your pants, down