BR interference with catcher fielding bunt

[Four Seam]

Page 233 of my 2004 ASA rule book has to do with Council Meetings, but if you say there is an exception in the Umpire's Manual or somewhere, that's good enough for me.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Four Seam

Page 233 of my 2004 ASA rule book has to do with Council Meetings, but if you say there is an exception in the Umpire's Manual or somewhere, that's good enough for me.

Mike was talking about the Umpire Edition of the rule book. You apparently have the coach's edition.

[IamMatt]

Is the reason that plays are treated differently when the BR and catcher are involved (I think Steve M used the term 'exception') that the the immediacy of the play and proximity of the BR and F2 make it virtually impossible (in some plays, like the ones in the OP) for them to react in a way (while playing normally) that would prevent any sort of interaction between them?

IOW on some plays, they are potentially tangled up on their first step, with no time to avoid one another, in contrast to the sitch posted of a runner from 2B to 3B interfering with F6 fielding a batted ball in which the runner generally has sufficient reaction time to avoid interfering(?)

[Four Seam]

It might have been a good idea to put the exception into the coach's edition of the rule book so we would know what to tell our catchers and batters about bunting, especially since the rule and the POE are so clear and explicit. Well, that's why it's good to have boards like this, and I appreciate the umpires taking their time to post here.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Four Seam

It might have been a good idea to put the exception into the coach's edition of the rule book so we would know what to tell our catchers and batters about bunting,

No, because then it will turn into a strategy, just like the LBR. Just have your players play the game and do what they are supposed to do.

[GaryBarrentine]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, because then it will turn into a strategy, just like the LBR.

What!!! A rule interpretation should not be available to coaches, because it maybe turned in to a strategy, what a load of pooh!

All rules, exceptions, notes, and interpretations used to play the game should be available to all parties involved with said game(coaches, players, umpires, and fans) in some standard form(written, electronic, etc)!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just have your players play the game and do what they are supposed to do.

How can the players play the game with in the rules if they do not know them, because the do not have them!

GaryB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by GaryBarrentine

What!!! A rule interpretation should not be available to coaches, because it maybe turned in to a strategy, what a load of pooh!

All rules, exceptions, notes, and interpretations used to play the game should be available to all parties involved with said game(coaches, players, umpires, and fans) in some standard form(written, electronic, etc)!

Gary, for you, this is a dumb comment. You have access to everything an umpire has, it just isn't wrapped up with a bow on it.

How can the players play the game with in the rules if they do not know them, because the do not have them!

Really? Whats that book you get with your registration? A rule book, maybe? And to be quite honest, even those who read the rule book, most coaches don't have a clue. There is more to knowing how to officiate a game than reading words on a page.

Rant on!

Pooh this! Players should just play the game, period. The coaches and players should play the game by the rules, period. If you want interpretations, start going to some clinics, exclamation point!

We are not your babysitters and my point as to it becoming strategy is so valid, it isn't even funny. I guarantee there will now be some coach teaching his/her players to try and time their advance to 1B to cut off the catcher. When the umpire calls INT, the moaning (do coaches do that?) will begin and the umpire will eventually end up tossing some yahoo who is trying to bend the rules instead of playing the game straight up. We hear it CONSTANTLY in almost every tournament. Blue, she's leaving early. Blue, she's illegal. Blue, she cannot stop once she starts that way. Blue, you called her safe, you cannot now call her out. Blue, her sunglasses are distracting my batter. Blue, are you sure she can wear a white sleeve while pitching. Waa Waa Waa!

Steve M. what do you think your buddy from Ohio would try to do with something like this if he actually read the book including the umpire's manual? Don't think he would whine too much when his player gets rung up for INT, do you?

Apparently, somewhere along the way, some coaches got the idea that "working the umpire" is part of the game and it is never personal. Well, guess what? When we tell you to leave the park, it isn't personal, you deserved it.

We are not there to be "worked". We are there to apply the rules as instructed, not to be a substitute for your wife when you feel that badgering someone is the best offense.

What the umpires are discussing here is direction of how to handle a certain situation. If you want to call the book, fine. Every time, it is going to be INT and catchers will be jumping into your batters just to draw the call. Why? Because coaches will be coaching that scenario. What do you think the possibility of injury is going to be in that scenario?

Let them play the game. Knowing the rules is great. Coaching to the rules instead of the game is a disservice to the players, team and the game itself.

Rant off!

[NCASAUmp]

The thing that has always made me go "WHY?!" is the fact that there are multiple editions of the rule book. Coaches' Edition. Umpire's Edition. UIC's Edition.

I agree that there should be one, and only one version of the rule book. For example, does it not say in the UIC version that umpires should not wear jewelry (I've never seen the UIC Edition, but I could have sworn someone on this forum has said that in another thread)? Why doesn't the Umpire's Edition say that?

My suggestion: one rule book. Period. All the same rules and all the same Rules Supplements in one book. You'll have a lesser likelihood of inconsistent print between the two versions. If you're a coach, get the rule book a separate coach's manual. If you're an umpire, you get the same rule book with a separate Umpire's Manual. If you're a UIC, get the same rule book and get the separate UIC manual.

I'm still waiting for the Fans' Edition, but I guess that one is always subject to change.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by GaryBarrentine

What!!! A rule interpretation should not be available to coaches, because it maybe turned in to a strategy, what a load of pooh!

All rules, exceptions, notes, and interpretations used to play the game should be available to all parties involved with said game(coaches, players, umpires, and fans) in some standard form(written, electronic, etc)!



How can the players play the game with in the rules if they do not know them, because the do not have them!

GaryB

Nope, if you want in the Umpire Secret Society and to get to learn all the secret strat stuff we know: go through the hazing, pay the dues and learn the handshake.

Til then, just teach em how to play.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Four Seam

It might have been a good idea to put the exception into the coach's edition of the rule book so we would know what to tell our catchers and batters about bunting, especially since the rule and the POE are so clear and explicit. Well, that's why it's good to have boards like this, and I appreciate the umpires taking their time to post here.

since I can speak from both sides of the fence:

The Team Edition of the rulebook contains the code, largely because there can and are things coaches and others involved with a team need to research during the year. Hopefully, you are amongst the few that actually read it. For some reason we keep having these pesky pickup players who coaches want to have play for their team in some championship events for which pickup players aren't eligible. Those and other issues are addressed in the code.

For the most part, umpires aren't interested in the code. That;s the administrator's part: commissioners, JO commissioners, their deputies, tournament directors and the like.

Hence, the book umpires receive have a manual that explains certain things.

If you ask your commissioner/JO commissioner, a deputy, or a player rep, they should be able to get an umpire's edition to you if you want one. They may be out of 2007 books, but you could reserve a 2008 edition.

On a side note, you might tell your commissioner you'd like to have the umpire-in-chief or their representative at your ACE classes next year (if you are in JO ball) or a league meeting. It can really help ford the chasm that some feel exists between players/coaches and umpires. It certainly works well for us here in the Seattle/Tacoma Association.

[bigsig]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Mike was talking about the Umpire Edition of the rule book. You apparently have the coach's edition.

FYI - ASA Umpire Rule Book 2007 Page 235 at the bottom. Irish is 100% correct. No call.