BR interference with catcher fielding bunt

[Four Seam]

It might have been a good idea to put the exception into the coach's edition of the rule book so we would know what to tell our catchers and batters about bunting, especially since the rule and the POE are so clear and explicit. Well, that's why it's good to have boards like this, and I appreciate the umpires taking their time to post here.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Four Seam

It might have been a good idea to put the exception into the coach's edition of the rule book so we would know what to tell our catchers and batters about bunting,

No, because then it will turn into a strategy, just like the LBR. Just have your players play the game and do what they are supposed to do.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Four Seam

It might have been a good idea to put the exception into the coach's edition of the rule book so we would know what to tell our catchers and batters about bunting, especially since the rule and the POE are so clear and explicit. Well, that's why it's good to have boards like this, and I appreciate the umpires taking their time to post here.

since I can speak from both sides of the fence:

The Team Edition of the rulebook contains the code, largely because there can and are things coaches and others involved with a team need to research during the year. Hopefully, you are amongst the few that actually read it. For some reason we keep having these pesky pickup players who coaches want to have play for their team in some championship events for which pickup players aren't eligible. Those and other issues are addressed in the code.

For the most part, umpires aren't interested in the code. That;s the administrator's part: commissioners, JO commissioners, their deputies, tournament directors and the like.

Hence, the book umpires receive have a manual that explains certain things.

If you ask your commissioner/JO commissioner, a deputy, or a player rep, they should be able to get an umpire's edition to you if you want one. They may be out of 2007 books, but you could reserve a 2008 edition.

On a side note, you might tell your commissioner you'd like to have the umpire-in-chief or their representative at your ACE classes next year (if you are in JO ball) or a league meeting. It can really help ford the chasm that some feel exists between players/coaches and umpires. It certainly works well for us here in the Seattle/Tacoma Association.

[bigsig]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Mike was talking about the Umpire Edition of the rule book. You apparently have the coach's edition.

FYI - ASA Umpire Rule Book 2007 Page 235 at the bottom. Irish is 100% correct. No call.

[GaryBarrentine]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, because then it will turn into a strategy, just like the LBR.

What!!! A rule interpretation should not be available to coaches, because it maybe turned in to a strategy, what a load of pooh!

All rules, exceptions, notes, and interpretations used to play the game should be available to all parties involved with said game(coaches, players, umpires, and fans) in some standard form(written, electronic, etc)!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just have your players play the game and do what they are supposed to do.

How can the players play the game with in the rules if they do not know them, because the do not have them!

GaryB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by GaryBarrentine

What!!! A rule interpretation should not be available to coaches, because it maybe turned in to a strategy, what a load of pooh!

All rules, exceptions, notes, and interpretations used to play the game should be available to all parties involved with said game(coaches, players, umpires, and fans) in some standard form(written, electronic, etc)!

Gary, for you, this is a dumb comment. You have access to everything an umpire has, it just isn't wrapped up with a bow on it.

How can the players play the game with in the rules if they do not know them, because the do not have them!

Really? Whats that book you get with your registration? A rule book, maybe? And to be quite honest, even those who read the rule book, most coaches don't have a clue. There is more to knowing how to officiate a game than reading words on a page.

Rant on!

Pooh this! Players should just play the game, period. The coaches and players should play the game by the rules, period. If you want interpretations, start going to some clinics, exclamation point!

We are not your babysitters and my point as to it becoming strategy is so valid, it isn't even funny. I guarantee there will now be some coach teaching his/her players to try and time their advance to 1B to cut off the catcher. When the umpire calls INT, the moaning (do coaches do that?) will begin and the umpire will eventually end up tossing some yahoo who is trying to bend the rules instead of playing the game straight up. We hear it CONSTANTLY in almost every tournament. Blue, she's leaving early. Blue, she's illegal. Blue, she cannot stop once she starts that way. Blue, you called her safe, you cannot now call her out. Blue, her sunglasses are distracting my batter. Blue, are you sure she can wear a white sleeve while pitching. Waa Waa Waa!

Steve M. what do you think your buddy from Ohio would try to do with something like this if he actually read the book including the umpire's manual? Don't think he would whine too much when his player gets rung up for INT, do you?

Apparently, somewhere along the way, some coaches got the idea that "working the umpire" is part of the game and it is never personal. Well, guess what? When we tell you to leave the park, it isn't personal, you deserved it.

We are not there to be "worked". We are there to apply the rules as instructed, not to be a substitute for your wife when you feel that badgering someone is the best offense.

What the umpires are discussing here is direction of how to handle a certain situation. If you want to call the book, fine. Every time, it is going to be INT and catchers will be jumping into your batters just to draw the call. Why? Because coaches will be coaching that scenario. What do you think the possibility of injury is going to be in that scenario?

Let them play the game. Knowing the rules is great. Coaching to the rules instead of the game is a disservice to the players, team and the game itself.

Rant off!

[NCASAUmp]

The thing that has always made me go "WHY?!" is the fact that there are multiple editions of the rule book. Coaches' Edition. Umpire's Edition. UIC's Edition.

I agree that there should be one, and only one version of the rule book. For example, does it not say in the UIC version that umpires should not wear jewelry (I've never seen the UIC Edition, but I could have sworn someone on this forum has said that in another thread)? Why doesn't the Umpire's Edition say that?

My suggestion: one rule book. Period. All the same rules and all the same Rules Supplements in one book. You'll have a lesser likelihood of inconsistent print between the two versions. If you're a coach, get the rule book a separate coach's manual. If you're an umpire, you get the same rule book with a separate Umpire's Manual. If you're a UIC, get the same rule book and get the separate UIC manual.

I'm still waiting for the Fans' Edition, but I guess that one is always subject to change.

[Steve M]

I'll start with completely agreeing with Mike's rant. That's not really part of playing the game - let's call it part of the on field administrative stuff.

Mike - as for my buddy in Ohio - I'm quite sure he'd tell me that he'd handle it with the uic - oh, wait, he did just that. And I allowed him to go see the uic.......

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by GaryBarrentine

What!!! A rule interpretation should not be available to coaches, because it maybe turned in to a strategy, what a load of pooh!

All rules, exceptions, notes, and interpretations used to play the game should be available to all parties involved with said game(coaches, players, umpires, and fans) in some standard form(written, electronic, etc)!



How can the players play the game with in the rules if they do not know them, because the do not have them!

GaryB

Nope, if you want in the Umpire Secret Society and to get to learn all the secret strat stuff we know: go through the hazing, pay the dues and learn the handshake.

Til then, just teach em how to play.

[GaryBarrentine]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Nope, if you want in the Umpire Secret Society and to get to learn all the secret strat stuff we know: go through the hazing, pay the dues and learn the handshake..

Been there done that!

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Til then, just teach em how to play.

If you do not have all the rules, you can not teach em how to play, let alone how to play by the rules!

GaryB

[GaryBarrentine]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Gary, for you, this is a dumb comment.

Personal attack right off the bat, this should be good!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You have access to everything an umpire has

Really, then why does the rule book I get with my registration not have the rule exception you have spoken of?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

it just isn't wrapped up with a bow on it.

Thats right I have to go and buy another rule book with the umpires manual in it.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And to be quite honest, even those who read the rule book, most coaches don't have a clue.

I know a few umpires that don't have a clue.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Rant on!

Oh boy, here we go!!!!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The coaches and players should play the game by the rules, period.!

How can they, if the rule books they are given to use are incomplete?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If you want interpretations, start going to some clinics, exclamation point!

Why, I should be able to get them from the rule book myself.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

We are not your babysitters

No, but you make yourself into one when you are the only one privey to certain rule exceptions, because they are only listed in the umpires manual!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

my point as to it becoming strategy

Is irrellavent. If a strategy is developed from a rules clarification or interpretation, so what?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Steve M. what do you think your buddy from Ohio would try to do with something like this if he actually read the book including the umpire's manual?

Why should his buddy have to read the umpires manual for an exception to a rule?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Apparently, somewhere along the way, some coaches got the idea that "working the umpire" is part of the game and it is never personal. Well, guess what? When we tell you to leave the park, it isn't personal, you deserved it.

We are not there to be "worked". We are there to apply the rules as instructed, not to be a substitute for your wife when you feel that badgering someone is the best offense.

Ahhh, now there was the real reason for the rant!!!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What the umpires are discussing here is direction of how to handle a certain situation.

A situation that has an exception that is not availiable to all parties!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If you want to call the book, fine.

Until the exception is listed in the rules or POE this is how it should be.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Coaching to the rules instead of the game is a disservice to the players, team and the game itself.

Without the rules you have no valid game, without a valid game there is nothing to coach to, so the only way to coach is to the rules!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Rant off!

Ooooh, finished so soon!

There should be only one rule book, with the rules, all exceptions, all notes, and all interpreatations. This way everyone is on the same ground when it comes to the rules!

GaryB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

The thing that has always made me go "WHY?!" is the fact that there are multiple editions of the rule book. Coaches' Edition. Umpire's Edition. UIC's Edition.

I agree that there should be one, and only one version of the rule book. For example, does it not say in the UIC version that umpires should not wear jewelry (I've never seen the UIC Edition, but I could have sworn someone on this forum has said that in another thread)? Why doesn't the Umpire's Edition say that?

My suggestion: one rule book. Period. All the same rules and all the same Rules Supplements in one book. You'll have a lesser likelihood of inconsistent print between the two versions. If you're a coach, get the rule book a separate coach's manual. If you're an umpire, you get the same rule book with a separate Umpire's Manual. If you're a UIC, get the same rule book and get the separate UIC manual.

I'm still waiting for the Fans' Edition, but I guess that one is always subject to change.

What are you talking about? If there is a UIC edition, someone in OKC owes me a few rule books.

The rules and supplements are in all rule books. The difference between the Umpire and Team Editions is the Umpire Manual and ASA Code, respectively.

As far as wearing jewelry, there are a couple of reasons why an umpire should not wear jewelry.

#1 is that it is possible, and it happens, where a player does make contact with an umpire and you do not want contact with a watch, bracelet, ring with a hard edge or stone, etc. to cause harm to the player.

#2 is hypocrisy. If an umpire is going to go onto the field and tell players to not wear jewelry because it is dangerous, how would his/her be any less dangerous. See #1.

#3 is professionalism. And I'm not talking about all pieces of jewelry. However, just as an umpire is instructed to not wear some gaudy belt buckle, so would the same be with certain pieces of jewelry. Imagine Mr. T umpiring with all his bling.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by GaryBarrentine

Personal attack right off the bat, this should be good!

Really, then why does the rule book I get with my registration not have the rule exception you have spoken of?

It's not an exception, it is direction to an umpire, but I've said that before. Apparently, you are only interested in hearing yourself talk.

Thats right I have to go and buy another rule book with the umpires manual in it.

Just like an umpire must go and buy a copy of the Clinic Guide or Case Book if they desire to have that information. I offer free clinics to all ASA umpires and routinely have an open invitation to all coaches. In more than five years, I have yet to see a coach who was not an umpire attend any of our state clinics. I also have opened up our state umpire school to the local ASA programs at a discounted rate to help train their league umpires/parents so that the local leagues that cannot afford or attain regular umpires still have a taste of what they will see during a tournament. In the last five years, five have signed up, but only one has attended. The others just are not interested in providing a better game environment for their teams. I have been told by officers of leagues that they just don't feel it is that important that they would need to waste the registration money ($20).

I know a few umpires that don't have a clue.

So do I and it is because they do NOT attend clinics, schools or even attempt to further their knowledge of the rules and mechanics other then pick up a new rule book each year, just like many coaches.

How can they, if the rule books they are given to use are incomplete?

They are not. That is a presumption on your behalf because you don't care for some of the answers you get.

No, but you make yourself into one when you are the only one privey to certain rule exceptions, because they are only listed in the umpires manual!

How many times must you be reminded this is not an exception?

Is irrellavent. If a strategy is developed from a rules clarification or interpretation, so what?

I'm not going to repeat myself. Are you one of these e-teamz idiots that believes that if someone is deep into umpiring that they have never coached or does not know the game as a coach? I know you are not that dumb because your posts of the past have always been to a level of intelligence not demonstrated by many.

Hell, there are umpires out there that know the teams better than the coaches. You want a hint? If you ever see a base umpire move to a position that seems to be just a bit out of place, it is probably because they know the pitcher and batter well enough that they can anticipate where a batted ball will go or what play may come next. Admittedly, this is more prevelant in SP, but I've seen an umpire shade toward a play in all games just because they know what is coming next.

Why should his buddy have to read the umpires manual for an exception to a rule?

A situation that has an exception that is not availiable to all parties!

Until the exception is listed in the rules or POE this is how it should be.

WHAT EXCEPTION? Let me give you the simplest explanation available. If the catcher and BR collide, as the umpire if I do not judge an act of interference by the BR, there is no interference, and that is the rule. The notation in the Umpire Manual is simply direction to ASA umpires in the manner in which rule 8.2.F.1 should be administered in this situation. That is part of the nationwide training ASA provides in an effort to assure teams that a call in CA will be the same as the call in PA. Obviously, because of the clueless umpires noted above, that will not happen if the umpire/UIC fail in their responsibility to attain/provide the appropriate training.

Without the rules you have no valid game, without a valid game there is nothing to coach to, so the only way to coach is to the rules!

Rubbish!! A coach should be worried about teaching players how to hit, catch, field, throw and run. Players should be coached in the mechanics and how to play within the rules, not attempting to skirt them.

There should be only one rule book, with the rules, all exceptions, all notes, and all interpreatations. This way everyone is on the same ground when it comes to the rules!

The exceptions are noted. They are the part of the rule where the paragraph begins with "EXCEPTION:" As for interpretations, I've explained to you how to obtain that information. If you choose not to make that effort, that's your issue, not the umpire's.

[IamMatt]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Imagine Mr. T umpiring with all his bling.

At least nobody would try to "work" him!

[GaryBarrentine]

Mike,

There is no valid reason why all rule directions/execptions/interpretations should not be in a single rule book availiable to all. A coach should not have to buy an umpire's manual or attend a clinic in an attempt to understand the rules.

GaryB