ASA what's the call?

[oppool]

Here is a play that was discussed last month at National school and then again today at our local Metro meeting which I heard two different answers from top National people.

B1 hits a grounder to F6 whose throw to F3 is wide and high which takes F3 into foul territory to catch the ball and off of the bag.

Question: with the double base being used at 1st which side of the bag or either does F3 have to touch to make the out??

I will tell the two different information as I understood it after replies


Have a good one

Don

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by oppool
Here is a play that was discussed last month at National school and then again today at our local Metro meeting which I heard two different answers from top National people.

B1 hits a grounder to F6 whose throw to F3 is wide and high which takes F3 into foul territory to catch the ball and off of the bag.

Question: with the double base being used at 1st which side of the bag or either does F3 have to touch to make the out??

I will tell the two different information as I understood it after replies


Have a good one

Don

Don,

In the case described above,
I would say either bag would be considered appropriate.

glen

[Steve M]

Don,
In 2002's rule changes, #46 according to my notes, the defensive player is permitted to use the orange base. When the defense uses the orange base 'cuz the throw is coming from foul territory, the batter-runner may run inside the foul line (out of the running lane) and use the white base. This is the only place that I have actually seen it written that it's OK for the defense to use either base, so it's a good clarification (I have heard from enough folks that I'd have allowed it in past years) . If we say that due to a bad throw, either base is OK for the defense, we have essentially doubled the size of first base for the defense and potentially taken away the normal result of an errant throw.

So, in your example Don, I'd have to say the batter-runner is safe because the fielder was off the bag.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by oppool
B1 hits a grounder to F6 whose throw to F3 is wide and high which takes F3 into foul territory to catch the ball and off of the bag.

Question: with the double base being used at 1st which side of the bag or either does F3 have to touch to make the out??

So far as I know, the 2002 changes did not change the existing rule regarding overthrows or missed throws. In this case, both the defense and the offense may use either base.

I don't know why the national staff would be confused. It clearly says that either player may use either base.

[Skahtboi]

The rule of thumb that we have always used regarding the safety base has been that if the throw pulls the defense to the foul side of the bag, then they may use the orange side to make the play and the runner can then use the white side as her bag. The purpose of the safety base is simply that, to cut down on the collisions at first as a result of "bang bang" plays.

Scott

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Skahtboi
The rule of thumb that we have always used regarding the safety base has been that if the throw pulls the defense to the foul side of the bag, then they may use the orange side to make the play and the runner can then use the white side as her bag.

Scott, for ASA that is not a rule of thumb, it is a written rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

No brainer.

ASA Rule 2.3.H.1.c:

"On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base, or an errant throw pulling the defense into foul ground, the defense and the batter-runner can use either the white or colored portion."

I do not like, nor support the "errant throw" portion of this rule because it nullifies the purpose of the double-base.

As I have always said, with the present rules in place, a safety-base isn't.

But them's the rules I'm being paid to call, so them's the rules in effect.

[oppool]

It may have just been mispoken or maybe I misheard

1st one pretty much agrees with what must of you are saying.
If the throw from fair territory brings F3 completly off of the bag in foul territory and the ball was caught on the fly the fielder may touch the orange side of the bag for the out

The other way I heard it was

If the fielder catches the ball in flight even in foul territory he must still come back to the white side. Only if the ball contacts the ground in foul territory is it then the fielder is able to make the out coming back to the orange side of the bag.

Now I will say I wasnt the only one that heard these statements and made a note of the difference and what we were told 2 other guys that had attended the same meetings caught this. Like I said it may have just been a slip up which we all have done but it is what I heard and I was not about to contridict either

Thanks

Don

[ntxblue]

Don,

Thanks for posting this issue. I left puzzled yesterday, also.

Your version of the two opinions is exactly the way I remember it explained at national school in December and then yesterday at the Dallas Metro Rules Clinic.

Both versions were presented by different members of the national staff. After asking for clarification, we were told that only when the play comes from foul territory will the defense be allowed to use the orange base. This obviously contradicts what the rule book says.

I know what the rule book says, so I know how I will continue to make the call.

Gary

[Steve M]

Obviously, I'm going to have to get to know the double base and it's impact. None of the games I've ever done have used it - but that's going to change as will my ignorance of it. We're a couple months away from the first state ASA clinic here in Pa.

[Skahtboi]

The problem that I have with the statement made regarding catching the ball in flight and its impact on the use of the safety base is simple. That mindset will nullify the usefulness of and the whole purpose of the "safety" base. Once again, this base was introduced as a means to cut down on collisions on close plays at first base. It was not devised as a means of punishment to either team. The only purpose for a penalty of any type to be invoked at that position based on the use of the base itself is when either player negates the purpose of it by ignoring it. (i.e. a first baseman who has been pulled into foul territory as the result of a play trying to step back, in front of the runner, to make a play to the white side.) This sounds like pure silliness and a failure to comprehend the true spirit and intent of not just the safety base, but of ASA Rule 2:3:H:1:c.

Scott

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Steve M
Obviously, I'm going to have to get to know the double base and it's impact. None of the games I've ever done have used it - but that's going to change as will my ignorance of it. We're a couple months away from the first state ASA clinic here in Pa.

Steve,
Our clinic here is not until the 28th of January. We
have NFHS the 9th and then on the 19th we have the AFA.
Do you know if the 2002 Case Book changes are out or
not? I was using 2001 ASA 2.3.H1c as backup for my reply.
So far in ASA none of my games have had the double bagger.
AFA if and when used, we use ASA rule. Sounds like it may
be little confusing at first if the ruling is changing from
what it reads now.

glen

[Edited by whiskers_ump on Jan 6th, 2002 at 05:41 PM]

[oppool]

Glen,

They said the 2002 case book pages are at the printer at this time and are not out yet but should be ready soon.

As for the new rule changes for ASA 2002 effecting the orange bag is for a ball that is fielded in foul territory the BR lane is extended 3ft into fair territory to protect the runner from being hit letting the fielder play off of the orange bag...But no new wording on a ball that is fielded from fair territory


Don

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by oppool
Glen,

They said the 2002 case book pages are at the printer at this time and are not out yet but should be ready soon.

As for the new rule changes for ASA 2002 effecting the orange bag is for a ball that is fielded in foul territory the BR lane is extended 3ft into fair territory to protect the runner from being hit letting the fielder play off of the orange bag...But no new wording on a ball that is fielded from fair territory


Don

Don,

Thanks.

glen

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I do not like, nor support the "errant throw" portion of this rule because it nullifies the purpose of the double-base.

Mike,

I've been thinking about this and trying to understand what you are saying. Compare the play of an errant throw pulling F3 into foul territory under three different circumstances:

a) a single white base;
b) a double base where the defense may not use the colored base on an errant throw;
c) the rule as currently written.

Which is safer?

With a), we have the BR running at full speed to the base in the running lane, and F3 snagging the errant throw and scrambling back to the base. Both players will try to occupy the same spot at the same time, both moving quickly, both approaching the base from the foul territory side.

With b), we have a similar situation, only now F3 has to cross the path of the BR to reach the legal base. While the base each is trying for is different, F3 has a high likelihood, it seems to me, of blocking the colored base as she tries to beat the runner to the base.

With c), the BR may cross into fair territory and run outside the running lane to touch the white base, and F3 may scramble back to the colored base. Of course, maybe they won't do this, but they can in order to avoid a collision.

Circumstance c) seems safer to me.


[Edited by Dakota on Jan 7th, 2002 at 09:43 AM]